The Original Proponent Of Intelligent Design

The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.

– Albert Einstein

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67 Responses to The Original Proponent Of Intelligent Design

  1. suyts says:

    “As a blind man has no idea of colors, so we have no idea of the manner by which
    the all-wise God perceives and understands all things.” (Isaac Newton)

    Of course, there is Einstein’s contemporary….. “Anybody who has been seriously engaged in scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the scientist cannot dispense with.” and
    “Both Religion and science require a belief in God. For believers, God is in the beginning, and for physicists He is at the end of all considerations… To the former He is the foundation, to the latter, the crown of the edifice of every generalized world view.” —- Max Planck (It kinda goes with the Alpha and Omega Bible quote…. don’t it.) 🙂

  2. omnologos says:

    After the discovery of the limits of Logic, atheism should’ve become untenable for the educated mind. Instead we’re collectively even more superstitious than before, and plenty really do believe there’s no God.

    • Andy WeissDC says:

      Atheism is a fanatical, intolerant belief that there is nothing other than one’s brief,
      meaningless existence to believe in. Sounds like clinical depression to me.

      • Sleepalot says:

        “Atheism is a fanatical [1], intolerant [2] belief that there is nothing other than one’s brief [3],
        meaningless [4] existence to believe in [5]. Sounds like clinical depression to me.”[6]

        [1] Lie. There are no atheist cathedrals, no atheist holy days, no atheist rituals, ….
        Getting atheists to assemble or organize is like herding cats.
        [2] Lie. You started beating up on atheism for want of an atheist: you do it out of instinct.
        “First remote the mote from your eye, before you remove the speck from mine.”
        [3] There’s no evidence to the contrary.
        [4] Pretending your life has some special meaning is not superior to not making such a pretence.
        [5] Strawman. Atheism is not what you claim it to be. You have no more right to dictate my beliefs (or lack thereof) to me, than I have to dictate your beliefs to you. You think yourself a christian? Shame on you! Jesus said “love thy neighbour”, not “love thy neighbour – unless he’s an atheist, in which case denounce him at every opportunity, and spread lies about him.”
        [6] So you’re knowledge of psychiatry is comparable to your knowledge of atheism then.

      • GregW says:

        Sleepalot,
        There are many kinds of atheists. Perhaps you’re one of the peace-loving kind. But there have been many fanatical, intolerant ones in recent history. Stalin, Mao, Romania’s Nicolae Ceaușescu, the butcher of the Carpathians, Albania’s Enver Hoxha who created the world first oficailly atheist state, are a few examples. These are men who collectively killed millions. They were all (1) fanatical, (2) intolerant, and I would add very angry with religious people, particularly Christians. You seem a little angry yourself.

      • suyts says:

        Sleepalot,

        Its a beautiful thing for an avowed atheist to quote from a Book he doesn’t believe. But, reading your reply, I see where you’ve pointed out a strawman argument. (Not really) So, why do you engage in the very same?

        First, nowhere do I see Andy advocating that we should dictate someone’s beliefs. In fact, while some religions do attempt to dictate certain beliefs, it is antithetical to Christianity. Further, Andy doesn’t state, nor does he imply that he doesn’t love you. That stated, and seeing that you’re so well versed in the Scriptures, you also know that we’re taught that we are all flawed and sometimes our flaws manifest themselves. Perfection is something to strive for, but we’ll not achieve it in this life. And so, while it is true that we should have more introspection than observing others’ flaws it doesn’t make the observation invalid, even if we still have a “mote” in our own eyes.

        Now, while Andy’s description may have been a bit pejorative, I note, that his main point, “..there is nothing other than one’s brief, meaningless existence to believe in.” is something you don’t disagree with. As far as the “intolerant” remark, some people’s actions, being intentionally visible, do lend to the appearance of intolerance. So, while we shouldn’t lump everyone into the same box, we know that it is human nature to do just that.

        There’s one other thing I’d like to point out, Andy didn’t say he was a Christian. He appears to believe in God, but there are many religions other than Christianity that believe in a deity, so quoting the Bible may not have the effect you’re wishing.

        For the record, I’m a Christian, I acknowledge that I can’t force you to believe anything. I don’t wish to force you to believe anything. I don’t denounce you. And I love you in the manner as Christ commanded.

        Sleep, in my book, you’re a welcomed friend anytime.

        James

      • It's always Marcia, Marcia says:

        There are no atheist cathedrals?

        The atheist has cathedrals of the mind where Richard Dawkins and his ilk are deified and worshiped. The intellect is the holy cathedral of the atheist.

      • Sleepalot says:

        Replying to GregW says: August 6, 2011 at 1:00 am

        Ah yes, Stalin, Mao, etc. Same old talking points, same old lies.

        I’m sure you well know the standard atheist reply, but here it is one more time…
        Stalin’s murders were _political_, not religious nor anti-religious. He eliminated opposition and competition.
        Meanwhile, the spanish and portugese inquisitions, the hundred years war, the pogroms, the crusades, the Holocaust, the catholic purges, the protestant purges, the English Civil War, the Balkans genocide, the Ashkenazi (?) jews, etc, etc. oh it’s all so banal I can hardly be bothered.
        Why is it always so difficult to get honesty from Christians?
        I thought the rule was “thou shall NOT bear false witness.”

        Of course for me, “the church” (any) is entirely a secular political organisation, so the deaths they produce are exactly to the same purpose as Stalin, Mao, etc.. but ymmv.

      • GregW says:

        Sleepalot: “Ah yes, Stalin, Mao, etc. Same old talking points, same old lies.” “Stalin’s murders were _political_, not religious nor anti-religious.”

        I just couldn’t let this go. They were both atheists who tried to totally eliminate religion from their domains. All communist leaders did this to one degree. Atheism was taught to school children and religion was forbidden to them. But you say they weren’t anti-religious, just political. Just what do you think lies are anyway?
        I have no desire to beat up on atheists. I was one myself for quite a while.
        But here’s a test for you.
        Here’e a list of some famous leaders known to have believed in God:
        Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, George Washington, Charles de Gaulle, Franklin Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt, Margaret Thatcher, Lech Welesa, Manachem Began, Vlaclav Havel, Ronald Reagan, John Howard
        I wouldn’t have agreed with any of them on everything, but not a bad bunch.
        Here’s a list of famous atheist leaders:
        Vladimir Lenin, Josef Stalin, Mao Tse-tung (Zedong), Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong-il, Nicolae Ceaușescu (the butcher of the Carpathians), Enver Hoxha (Albanian dictator of the world’s first officially atheist state – and what a state that was!), Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh (creator of re-education camps in Viet Nam), Fidel Castro
        Your challenge is to name one good atheist world leader, communist or otherwise. I don’t mean your local town councillor. Shouldn’t be too hard.

      • GregW says:

        I forgot Pol Pot. (Unintentional rhyme there.)
        “The Khmer Rouge also classified by religion and ethnic group. They banned all religion and dispersed minority groups, forbidding them to speak their languages or to practice their customs. They especially targeted Buddhist monks, Muslims, Christians, Western-educated intellectuals, educated people in general, people who had contact with Western countries or with Vietnam, disabled people, and the ethnic Chinese, Laotians and Vietnamese. Some were put in the S-21 camp for interrogation involving torture in cases where a confession was useful to the government. Many others were summarily executed.” So not one for the first list, I guess.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pol_Pot

    • Sleepalot says:

      Cartesian dualism is untenable. I think, therefor “God” is?
      Heh.

      • Amino Acids in Meteorites says:

        Atheists are anxious to let people know they are atheists.

      • Sleepalot says:

        In reply to
        “Amino Acids in Meteorites says: August 6, 2011 at 3:39 am
        Atheists are anxious to let people know they are atheists.”

        When the theists start pushing religion, and silence is taken for consent, then yes. I won’t keep quiet. Fair enough?

  3. rw says:

    Many years ago it was discovered that if a colony of the organism that causes scarlet fever is grown in a Petri dish these organisms eventually loses their virulence. Is this an example of ID? (Or for that matter, of acquired characteristics?)

    You can find the answer in J. B. S. Haldane’s The Causes of Evolution. It’s an interesting story.

  4. GregW says:

    As a former atheist who has become convinced that God exists I’m saddened to see so many now deciding that there is no God. Sometimes I feel like one of a fortunate remnant. I am now amazed at how blind I once was to “the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority”.

    It’s always good to be reminded that there are many other individuals who see Intelligence in the shaping of the universe.

  5. Sleepalot says:

    Ooooh. Are you all right-wing christians? I’m a left-wing atheist!

  6. suyts says:

    The thing that amazes me so much is that some have the idea that belief in a higher power, an intentional origin, and a master of natural law is somehow unscientific. Many if not most modern scientific advancements come from believers.

    • Sleepalot says:

      Science begins with observation. What is the observation that demands the creation of a higher power for its explanation?

      “Many if not most modern scientific advancements come from believers.”

      Yes, people have an amazing ability to partion their knowledge and beliefs.

      • Andy WeissDC says:

        My gripe with atheists (and of course everyone has a right to believe in whatever they want to) is that they are just as certain that there is no God (or whatever you want to call any supernatural power) as the religious fantatics are sure that they can describe the exact nature of God. Same goes for the possibility of an afterlife.

        My belief is that it is intellectually arrogant to pretend you know for sure one way or the other.

      • Sleepalot says:

        Replying to: “Andy WeissDC says: August 6, 2011 at 1:11 am”
        “My gripe with atheists (and of course everyone has a right to believe in whatever they want to) is that they are just as certain that there is no God (or whatever you want to call any supernatural power) as the religious fantatics are sure that they can describe the exact nature of God. ”

        Why can’t Christians ever be honest? Atheists are as certain that there are no gods (important point: I’m not just an atheist wrt your god) as Christians are that there is a god. But you couldn’t say that, could you? That’d be too simple, comparing like with like. You had to spin it further and in doing so you crossed the belief/knowledge boundary.
        Those who claim to know are called gnostics, and those who don’t are agnostics. Those who believe are theists and those who don’t are atheists. (A)gnosticism and (a)theism are orthogonal.

        So without adding that spin, your “gripe” would only have been that I am as certain as you!

        “My belief is that it is intellectually arrogant to pretend you know for sure one way or the other.”

        Funny how folks who are not warmists can be aware of the rising tide
        of eco-fascism while at the same time, being religious, being completely unaware of religious fascism. (Indeed so unaware that I expect howls of derision and demands for evidence for that remark.
        I’d prefer you thought about it first.)

      • GregW says:

        Sleepalot

        Sleepalot
        I don’t think atheists have much to fear from Christians these days. Those days seem to be over, thank God. Yes there are still kooks like Harold Camping, and Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptists (the “God Hates Fags” guy) but they are very much in the minority.
        As Christians’ power and influence are dwindling in the world today I think at the same time there is growing an awareness among us that love and truth is what matters, not power and control over others.
        As you yourself quoted from the Founder of Christianity:
        “First remote the mote from your eye, before you remove the speck from mine.”
        Jesus said “love thy neighbour”
        If we are to practice however ineptly these teachings which even you, an atheist, seem to approve of since you quoted them, it requires a radical change in our ideas and actions.
        But that doesn’t mean we should roll over and be a doomat for everyone as some would have it.
        If I may also offer a quote: “..speaking the truth in love” This is what Christians are instructed to do.
        I don’t know if Dr. Spencer is a Christian but he it seems he believes the universe shows signs of intelligent design. He attacked no-one. Instead he is being attacked for what is to many people, scientists included, a reasonable observation. Albert Einstein expressed a similar belief. Should he be vilified as well?
        I think that is what this post has mainly been about.

      • Sleepalot says:

        Reply to GregW says: August 6, 2011 at 6:37 pm

        “I don’t know if Dr. Spencer is a Christian but he it seems he believes the universe shows signs of intelligent design. He attacked no-one. Instead he is being attacked for what is to many people, scientists included, a reasonable observation.”

        You’re heading down the path of “he is attacked for his religious beliefs, therefore he is attacked by atheists.”

        “Albert Einstein expressed a similar belief. Should he be vilified as well?”

        You have to be very careful with statements attributed to Einstein: a lot of it was propoganda – for one group or another.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein%27s_religious_views

      • GregW says:

        Sleepalot : “You’re heading down the path of ‘he is attacked for his religious beliefs, therefore he is attacked by atheists’.”
        Dr Spencer has been attacked for a belief in Intelligent Design. Do you think he is being attacked mainly by theists or atheists? What’s your best guess?

        Sleepalot: “You have to be very careful with statements attributed to Einstein: a lot of it was propoganda – for one group or another.”
        The quote from Einstein was a good one and I believe it was authentic, so I can’t see why you have a problem with it; but it wasn’t mine – it was Steve who used it in the original post. Are you saying you don’t think Einstein thought there was an intelligence involved?

        Here again is what Einstein is quoted as saying:
        “The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection. ”
        – Albert Einstein

      • GregW says:

        Sorry – I just posted this in the wrong section.

        I for one am not interested in atheist bashing, but my observation is that most of the bashing these days seems to be from the other side.
        “The God Delusion”
        “God is not Great”
        “American Fascists:The Christian Right and the War on America”“The End of Faith”
        “The God Who Wasn’t There”
        “Religulous”
        These are just a few and all quite popular.
        Plenty of ammunition there for you – no doubt you’re familiar with them. But if you’re interested in truth I would steer clear of them.

      • Sleepalot says:

        Replying to GregW says: August 6, 2011 at 6:37 pm

        “I don’t think atheists have much to fear from Christians these days. ”

        Indeed, so long as we keep our mouths shut and live by your rules, and hand over our money, and our children, everything will be fine.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_laws
        Repealed in the England in 2008 (opposed by the bishops who have automatic right to sit in the House of Lords and vote on legislation), after the introduction of the Race and Religious Hatred Act 2006.

        So while you’re being outraged about moves to crimilaize climate-denial, keep in mind that if my words against religion offend you, you can always have me prosecuted for it.
        ————–
        In my lifetime, in my country (UK), participation in homosexual acts was punishable by life imprisonment, and submitting to sodomy was punishable by death.

        “(Alan) Turing’s homosexuality resulted in a criminal prosecution in 1952, when homosexual acts were still illegal in the United Kingdom. He accepted treatment with female hormones (chemical castration) as an alternative to prison. He died in 1954, (…)
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world
        (Note the dates.)

        Shall I go on?

      • Sleepalot says:

        Replying to GregW says: August 6, 2011 at 8:04 pm

        Sleepalot : “You’re heading down the path of ‘he is attacked for his religious beliefs, therefore he is attacked by atheists’.”
        Dr Spencer has been attacked for a belief in Intelligent Design. Do you think he is being attacked mainly by theists or atheists? What’s your best guess?

        My best guess is that he’s being attacked by warmists. Your concern for Dr Spencer is clearly outweighed by your desire to attack atheists.

        For the record, I neither know nor care if Dr Spencer is an ID-er.

    • suyts says:

      “What is the observation that demands the creation of a higher power for its explanation?”
      ==================================================
      That’s an easy one….. It is the observation of all things that would demand a person to believe in a higher power. Newton sets a prevailing argument in his Optiks paper, but I would extend it a bit. Not just the eyes, but how the eyes interact with the rest of the body and mind. Indeed, observation and experience mandates a higher power. I see a watch, and I know there was a watchmaker. I didn’t have to see, touch, hear or feel the watchmaker to know that he exists. And, yet, that watchmaker, makes his wares based on a much greater and more complex time piece. I see a person, and I know that person comes from other people. Most of the people I know exist or existed, I’ve never had any contact with. Still, I know they exist.

      These things exist, not by belief or faith, but by the scientific laws of nature.

      And so, when I observe that cosmos and when I observe all of the flora and fauna of this earth, and the seas and the mountains, and the products of all these things, I know there was a maker of these things. It is illogical to believe otherwise, and it would violate the known laws of nature.

      Hope that helps,

      James

      • Sleepalot says:

        Sleepalot: “What is the observation that demands the creation of a higher power for its explanation?”

        Suyts: That’s an easy one….. It is the observation of all things…

        Indeed, I knew what the answer would be before I asked the question. (It’s not my first time, talking to theists. 😉 But if you ask the “who” question – as theists always do – then you’re presuming a “who” answer. The question is “_how_”, not “who”: “how” allows and naturalistic answer, “who” does not. And in the absence of an answer, what’s wrong with saying “I don’t know”?

    • GregW says:

      I for one am not interested in atheist bashing, but my observation is that most of the bashing these days seems to be from the other side.
      “The God Delusion”
      “God is not Great”
      “American Fascists:The Christian Right and the War on America”
      “The End of Faith”
      “The God Who Wasn’t There”
      “Religulous”
      These are just a few and all quite popular.
      Plenty of ammunition there for you – no doubt you’re familiar with them. But if you’re interested in truth I would steer clear of them.

  7. Brandon Caswell says:

    I don’t see what god has to do with anything in this issue. It doesn’t matter if the laws of nature occured naturally or if they were designed. They exist and we all have to respect them.

    Im an atheist and I think global warming is a scam.

    But I see the warmers saying the religious can’t be trusted cause they are religious. Now I see the religious saying the warmers can’t be trusted cause they don’t believe in god.

    I say neither side can be trusted because they are spending more time worrying about religion now than about the real issue. This is not about god, so neither side should be bringing it up.

    I don’t care if you pray or not, The numbers still have to add up at the end of the equation.

    On the other hand I would bet many warmers can be heard praying for some warming or hurricanes lately. Lol

    • suyts says:

      Now I see the religious saying the warmers can’t be trusted cause they don’t believe in god.
      ==================================================

      Hmm, Brandon, I’m not sure that is the thrust of post or comments. While I can’t read Steve’s mind, the post likely came as a response to some criticism of Dr. Spencer. To wit, because Dr. Spencer believes in “intelligent design”, that it somehow causes his science to be invalidated.

      Some of us has chosen to simply point out some reasons why that thought is invalid. I certainly don’t dismiss someone’s posit base simply upon their belief systems, nor do I see any advocacy of such here.

      • It's always Marcia, Marcia says:

        Kepler had thought to be a priest. But decied his mind could better be used for God in science. What brilliant thoughts he brought to science!

      • suyts says:

        Indeed. it was Kepler’s work that provided a base for much of Newton’s, and it was both of their beliefs, (that God had created the world by an intelligible design) that was cause for much of their contributions.

      • Brandon Caswell says:

        “..After the discovery of the limits of Logic, atheism should’ve become untenable for the educated mind….” “Atheism is a fanatical, intolerant belief ……Sounds like clinical depression to me.”

        I don’t think Steve was being rude to atheists, it was some commenters.

        I agree that the comments about Spencer and intelligent design were offensive, but I don’t see how you make that point by being just as rude back. Which is why i pointed out that attacking anothers religious (or non religious) belief should stop so we can get back on topic.

        I thought the skeptical community was supposed to be taking the high road in this?

        I dont care if you believe in god or not. I made my choices and everyone else should make their own. I take offence to people who would attempt to try and force their belief on others. If you wanna believe in god, thats your right and I have no interest in changing it. Stop trying to change mine.

        Religion is about faith, you can’t prove your right. You can’t prove i’m wrong.

        But your no better than Hansen if you claim others are stupid simply because they disagree with something you can’t prove.

      • suyts says:

        Brandon,

        Yes, some comments were a bit degenerating. But, if you were to see past those 2 comments for a second, you’d see that there is a broad range of contributions to this discussion that doesn’t “attack anothers religious (or non religious) belief should stop so we can get back on topic.” Also, given the comments here, I’d have to say some aren’t reading the comments properly. For example —— “Stop trying to change mine.”

        I don’t see where there is a conversion attempt here. It is, rather, a reinforcement discussion. See GregW’s comment, “It’s always good to be reminded that there are many other individuals who see Intelligence in the shaping of the universe.” Perhaps you missed my reply to Sleepalot? “…I acknowledge that I can’t force you to believe anything. I don’t wish to force you to believe anything. I don’t denounce you…..”

        Of course, P.J.’s contribution, (quoting Lemaitre) tells us what the entire thrust of the discussion is…..

        I’d say you guys possess a sensitivity that perceives mal-intent where there is none.
        So, I’ll just close and tell you and anyone else reading this. If you were offended by this conversation, I’m truly sorry. There certainly was no intent, at least on my part, to offend. For yourself, Sleepalot, and others, you guys and your opinions are always a welcomed sight in my eyes. And, while I can’t speak for the rest, I can assure you the case is the same for the rest.

        James Sexton

  8. Sleepalot says:

    “I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings” Albert Einstein

    • suyts says:

      And entirely different discussion in that it is simply a different form of monotheism.

    • It's always Marcia, Marcia says:

      The Spinoza quote from Einstein is continually taken out of its context by atheists. They are thusly unfair to THEMSELVES.

      “No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.”

      -Einstein

      • Sleepalot says:

        “The Spinoza quote from Einstein is continually taken out of its context by atheists.”

        The context of the quote is the attacks on Einstein for his “godless” theory (from the Christians) or his “Jewish” theory (from the Nazis),
        and the question was put to him by a Rabbi: “Do you believe in God?”

        “They are thusly unfair to THEMSELVES.”
        I take the position that a pesron is what he says he is. I don’t have any agenda to make Einstein an atheist …

        ” “No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.” -Einstein ”

        … but Christians have an agenda to make Einstein a Christian, and
        I oppose that.

  9. It's always Marcia, Marcia says:

    “I shall be with Christ, and that is enough.”

    -Michael Faraday

  10. P.J. says:

    “Should a priest reject relativity because it contains no authoritative exposition on the doctrine of the Trinity? Once you realize that the Bible does not purport to be a textbook of science, the old controversy between religion and science vanishes . . . The doctrine of the Trinity is much more abstruse than anything in relativity or quantum mechanics; but, being necessary for salvation, the doctrine is stated in the Bible. If the theory of relativity had also been necessary for salvation, it would have been revealed to Saint Paul or to Moses . . . As a matter of fact neither Saint Paul nor Moses had the slightest idea of relativity.”

    – Georges Lemaitre

    • suyts says:

      The father of the Big Bang theory…… a Catholic priest.

      • P.J. says:

        The priest that presided over my wedding mass had been involved in cancer research for many years before joining the priesthood. Amazing to think that such a quiet, humble and holy man was also an accomplished scientist.

    • Amino Acids in Meteorites says:

      The trinity is hard?

      H2O can be a trinity: liquid, vapor, solid. Can God be a trinity? Is God greater, more complex, than H2O?

  11. omnologos says:

    I didnt say a thing about what kind of God to believe in. Agnosticism is perfectly logical too. it’s atheism that makes no sense.

  12. omnologos says:

    Sleepalot…not sure what your answer is? “there’s no God” or “I don’t know”?

    • Sleepalot says:

      I mean I have no explanation for life, the Universe and everything, or how it all came to be, and I’m content to say I don’t know. I have no personal need to invoke some invisble being to cover my lack of knowledge.
      If you want my opinion, it’s that there is no “God”, but it’s just an opinion, not fact.
      If you want to assert as a fact that there is such a thing, then you’ll have to accept the burden of proof.

      • The only reason that you have any need is because of whatever created you. Do you have any idea how arrogant your viewpoint is?

      • Brandon Caswell says:

        There is nothing arrogant about saying I don’t understand and therefore i wont jump to conclusions to fill the void in my knowledge.

        Is it not just as arrogant to imagine a god and assume it exists, just cause you imagined it?

        I dont really expect any discussions about religion (or atheism) to ever be productive. Religion and belief (also atheism) is highly personal and therefore not something you can extend onto the everyone else. This is like trying to argue what is the best music or the best color. It’s never gonna end and your never gonna change anyones beliefs. I find the Dawkins of the world to be just as offensive as the extreme religious, cause they are both sure of their own superiority. They both want to belittle people who disagree with them.

        I invite others to express their opinions. But there is no point in being suprised or offended if others hold different opinions. Be satisfied and even proud your beliefs, but don’t forget that it is only a belief. If you could prove it, then it would be science.

      • Brandon Caswell says:

        There is also no point in atheists to feel any superior to religious believers. Science hasn’t disproven the existence of god anymore than it has proven he exists. A true scientist would admit that god is a possibility simply because they have been shown no facts that disprove his existence.

      • Sleepalot says:

        Reply to stevengoddard says: August 6, 2011 at 10:01 pm

        “The only reason that you have any need is because of whatever created you.”

        Duh! My parents created me!

        “Do you have any idea how arrogant your viewpoint is?”

        What is arrogant, declaring my lack of knowledge, or expressing my personal opinion about the existence of “gods”?

      • Sleepalot says:

        Replying to stevengoddard says: August 6, 2011 at 11:34 pm
        “Your parents created you? ROFLMAO”

        Oh. Am I a “stork-denialist” now?

      • Sleepalot says:

        Replying to stevengoddard says: August 7, 2011 at 12:47 am
        “Your parents had sex. No knowledge of genetics is required.”

        Yep, that’s what I figured.

  13. Gosh, what an interesting thread we have going here. Good thing I haven’t heard all this back & forth business a few thousand times already in my life.

  14. GregW says:

    Sleepalot: “For the record, I neither know nor care if Dr Spencer is an ID-er.”
    His enemies among the AGW alarmists seem to care.

    Sleepalot: “… but Christians have an agenda to make Einstein a Christian, and
    I oppose that.”
    It’s well known that Einstein was Jewish. I for one have never met anyone who claimed he was a Christian.

    • Sleepalot says:

      Sleepalot: “For the record, I neither know nor care if Dr Spencer is an ID-er.”
      His enemies among the AGW alarmists seem to care.

      So then we’ve found a point on which we can agree: we both condemn the contemtible warmists who would drag a scientists religious beliefs into the spotlight in their attempt to smear his scientific work.

      “I for one have never met (…)”

      I don’t agree to confine myself to drawing from only those sources you’ve met.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein%27s_religious_views

      • GregW says:

        I found nothing in the article to indicate that “Christians have an agenda to make Einstein a Christian” Once again, it’s well known he was Jewish so what you have said is basically nonsense..

      • Sleepalot says:

        Replying to GregW says: August 7, 2011 at 1:39 am

        From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein%27s_religious_views

        “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.”

        People in the press made claims to the effect that Einstein had a faith in a personal God, ie, he was a Christian (at least that’s how Iunderstand those words – unless you can find another interpretation). I believe that the “lie which is being systematically repeated”, is continuing to this day.

        The following has been quoted in this thread…

        ““No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life.”
        -Einstein”
        … which is precisely the sort of thing I’m on about.

        Of course I’ve lived long enough to know that no Christian will ever be pursuaded on anything by an atheist, so I shalln’t hold my breath in anticipation,
        nor will I persue this point any further. Take it or leave it.

      • GregW says:

        Re: Einstein’s remarks about a personal God.
        “Most of classical Judaism views God as personal, meaning that humans have a relationship with God and vice versa. Much of the midrash, and many prayers in the siddur portrays God as caring about humanity in much the same way that humans care about God.”
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism
        “For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.” Einstein
        He was talking about Judaism which he didn’t believe in either. Nobody is trying to make him a Christian.

  15. omnologos says:

    Haven’t followed all the exchanges…I have the impression that some people believe that if one doesn’t believe in The Personal God of Abraham’s tradition, one is an “atheist”?

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