This was also shown in the 1990 IPCC Report
Disrupting the Borg is expensive and time consuming!
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7,000 Years Of Global Cooling – Erased By 20 Years Of Junk Science
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They can erase or alter the record but not the reality. Unlike the affairs of man what mother nature does with the climate cannot be erased. Mother nature is ultimately always the winner and the winner writes the history.
That is why those of us who have any understanding of geology shake our heads in wonder. Until the Warmists can explain Heinrich, Dansgaard-Oeschger, and Bond events they can not say CO2 is the ‘control Knob’ of climate because what ever cause those events trumps CO2 all to heck!
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/abrupt/images/data3-gisp2-icecore.gif
Notice the ‘attempts’ of the earth to return to the warm phase during the Wisconsin Ice Age that failed until there was enough solar energy at 65N to sustain the warm phase. The 24 Dansgaard-Oeschger oscillations (Figure Above. Sole et al, 2007), or abrupt warmings occurred in just a few years to mere decades. They average between 8-10C rises (D-O 19 scored 16C). The nominal difference between earth’s cold (glacial) and warm (interglacial) states being on the order of 20C.
Compare those 8-10C rises within a few decades to the fudged, adjusted and mangled rise of 0.13°F per decade that NOAA has managed to squeeze out of the current temperature record.
http://www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/gw/paleo/400000yearslarge.gif
Notice that the geologic record shows the cold phase is the more stable ‘default’ state of the climate with this continent configuration.
NOAA
“That is why those of us who have any understanding of geology shake our heads in wonder. Until the Warmists can explain Heinrich, Dansgaard-Oeschger, and Bond events they can not say CO2 is the ‘control Knob’ of climate because what ever cause those events trumps CO2 all to heck!”
Gail, if you understand geology, what is/are your explanation(s) for those events? Those of us who have any understanding of the physics of CO2 as a greenhouse gas know that these named events say nothing about the physics of CO2 as a greenhouse gas. If you claim to understand geology, enlighten us with your explanation(s).
“Those of us who have any understanding of the physics of CO2 as a greenhouse gas ”
That is NOT you. You understand NOTHING and you know it.
My long explanation got booted. Maybe Steven Goddard can fish it out of the netherworld.
Short explanation.
D-O/Bond event could be caused by:
1. Internal oscillations
2. External forces.
A possible external forcing is tidal force from the sun-moon gravitational field.
The moon actually circles the sun not the earth. Therefore the earth-moon alignment is not perfect. This means the tidal force of the moon plus the sun shifts north to south over a very long period ~1500 years. Ocean water is pulled north and then released as the moon heads back towards the equator. To complicate things you also have to take into account the tilt of the earth’s axis.
https://chiefio.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/tides-28-5.png
You can see this in the movement of eclipses.
To further complicate things the actual history of recorded eclipses in India from 400 A.D. to 1800 A.D. does not match what a NASA model says they should be.
Ancient eclipses and long-term drifts in the Earth–Moon system
>Short explanation.
>D-O/Bond event could be caused by:
>1. Internal oscillations
>2. External forces.
Thanks, Gail. These events are NOT directly caused by CO2 or any other greenhouse gas. Possibly not even indirectly caused. Therefore, they say nothing about the greenhouse effect. So your claim is false that we have to explain these events before we can claim that anthropogenic CO2 is causing the current warming. The physics of the greenhouse effect are independent of these other, strange events.
Gail, you are leaving out what, I think, most scientists who study the problem believe is the most likely cause: Major changes in the shape and size of the ice sheet during the glacials that severely alter the ocean currents in the North Atlantic. It seems almost obvious that if the top half of the northern hemisphere is completely covered by kilometers-thick ice, ocean currents in that area will be altered if not stopped altogether.
This possibility seems much more likely than your hand waving, and it has the added advantage with fitting perfectly with what we know actually happens during the glacials/interglacials.
But you would rather believe in unicorns?
“But you would rather believe in unicorns?”
Do NOT judge us by your standards.
The ONLY unicorns around here are the ones brain-washed into your lazy, gullible mind.
CO2 is a gas that absorbs a small select spectrum, and is used in Greenhouses to enhance plant growth.
Andy martin chooses to believe what he believes. It is a choice which trumps science or have you failed to learn your lessons in sociology and 21st century politics.
Flagrant non sequitur. Given that all plants need CO2 to grow it is (sometimes) added to greenhouses to augment that growth, not to trap heat.
There is absolutely no physical or thermal mechanism that allows CO2 to trap heat in an open atmosphere.
“There is absolutely no physical or thermal mechanism that allows CO2 to trap heat in an open atmosphere.”
Correctomundo, and when CO2 emits there is no greenhouse effect at all. If anything it has a minor cooling effect on the atmosphere.
There are two possible explanations.
1. Internal oscillations within the climate system.
2. A periodic external forcing.
The D-O events are discrete events paced by a regular cycle of 1470 years and the five most recent events, arguably the best dated, have a standard deviation of only 32 years (2 %) about a 1470 year spacing.
For a periodic external forcing the moon is a good candidate. We know the present tides are about 1/2 the total overturning force bringing cold deep water to the surface, so we also know that changes in tide forces could and would have major impacts.
Notice the word Present and note these tide sizes. Up to 3x as large as now.
Ancient Tides Quite Different from Today — Some Dramatically Higher, Some Lower
One Full Moon Cycle is the time required for the point of Perigee in the Lunar orbit to re-align with the Sun so the sun and the moon are pulling the oceans in the same direction. The strongest lunar tides occur when the Full Moon Cycle occurs at or very near to Perihelion This happens once every 177 years. These times are marked in the following diagram with vertical arrows.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZqUuujh2ibc/UccDJLVEYcI/AAAAAAAAAWk/jM4fWFxGNUs/s400/DO_07.jpg
What this is telling us is that it actually takes 1478.00 years (= 2 x 739.00 years) to complete the cycle with a New Moon at Perigee when a Full Moon Cycle is close to Perihelion once again.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DwvUGTr-V9A/UccGZEn31PI/AAAAAAAAAW0/m7ik6M2Uy6w/s1600/DO_08.jpg
Therefore if we look for cycles in the strength of the lunar tides that are synchronized with the seasons, we find that there is a natural 1470 year tidal cycle. H/T Ninderthana
You can see the alignment of the sun and moon and earth via the eclipse phenomenon called Saros Cycles.
Saros Cycles come in a series.
Not sure what you meant about moon not circling the earth. Doesn’t it do so in ~28 days?
It is not really circling it is more like weaving.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Moon_trajectory1.svg/1000px-Moon_trajectory1.svg.png
https://i0.wp.com/blog.world-mysteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/moon_synodic_cycle.jpg
Major H/T to E.M. Smith and Ian Wilson who has done a lot of study on the subject.
“These events are NOT directly caused by CO2 or any other greenhouse gas. Possibly not even indirectly caused. Therefore, they say nothing about the greenhouse effect. So your claim is false that we have to explain these events before we can claim that anthropogenic CO2 is causing the current warming.”
To date there has been no convincing explanation for what caused the events Gail listed, so to say these events had nothing to do with a greenhouse effect is empty hand waving, and not true in the absolute. The unequivocal fact remains that these were abrupt, unexplained climate change events, which in turn requires interaction with a greenhouse effect, regardless of mechanisms, especially when abrupt warming is involved. Gail never claimed that those events had anything whatsoever to do with CO2 or any other gas because she didn’t need to. Until we have a convincing explanation for these past events they cannot be ruled out as still-plausible for the present and future, except via argument from ignorance, as occurs when any competing cause to the “anthropogenic CO2-only” thesis is dismissed with extreme prejudice.
Steven, the graph was hand drawn and was removed from the IPCC report because it was wrong. The fact that after all these years you still didn’t know that shows how uninformed you really are.
In other words, the correct graph from the 1990 report was replaced by Mann’s fully fraudulent hockey stick – featured in the New York Times best seller “A Disgrace To the Profession”
You know the graph was meaningless, Steven, but here you are saying it was correct. You know it was wrong, but you say it was correct. What would you call me if I did that?
I know that you are meaningless.
Yes, Mann’s hockey stick is totally meaningless.
Except in that it introduced the world to the MASSIVE FRAUD that is AGW.
And the 1990 graph agreed with everything I read 30 years prior to that.
skeo, can you really remember everything you read in 1960?
You don’t seem to have comprehended or remembered anything your read last week.
Or is it just your WILFUL IGNORANCE again. as always.
It’s obvious you guys just don’t understand….
The graph used in the most important IPCC report of all….their coming out party, where they did every thing they could to be sure they had it right…..was wrong…..even though at the time, they did every thing in their power to get it right
….we have to believe them now, because the new graph is right
(or something like that……)
Stay tuned….update at 11
Paper please.
1,000 Greenland Ice Core
http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/graphs/lappi/gisp-last-10000-new.png
12,000 years VostoK Antarctica Ice Core
http://jonova.s3.amazonaws.com/graphs/lappi/vostok-last-12000-years-web.gif
33 proxy datasets showing 1200 years of temperature.
https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lanser_holocene_figure4.png
And proxies showing 20th Century
https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/lanser_holocene_figure1.png
2000 yrs of non tree ring proxies
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0120a64c8c9b970b-pi
Not a hokey stick to be seen. YOU LOSE!
Gail, you know what really stands out…is those stair steps
We’re in another little uptic…..but the trend is down
All the little warmig uptics are fairly evenly spaced…and we’re in one
They all go herky jerky up….and then crash down
Yes, Latitude that is why I put them up.
Take a good look at the graph of proxies showing 20th Century. The average of 11 proxies is the white line with red triangles. The 1930/40s is higher than present and we head up to another lower peak ~2000. From there we should head back down as the ClimAstrologists very well know. It was why the narative has switched from Global Warming to Climate Change/Extreme Weather.
One of the observations made in the papers I posted on the lunar influence is the cold phase starts in the Atlantic. Also Hudson Bay was the growth center for the Laurentide ice sheet that covered northern North America during the last Ice Age. So with the AMO about to switch, things will be interesting going forward. Possibly very soon
Martin,
On what basis do you conclude that 1990 science is incorrect and that 2015 science is correct? The main change during the last 25 years is that global warming/climate change has devolved into a huge political lobby with billions of dollars behind it. Also the systematic bullying and exclusion of credentialed scientists with skeptical viewpoints. Not to mention massive warm biased data tampering. I would logically conclude under those circumstances that 2015 science is far more likely to be corrupt than 1990 science.
Your question seems silly, Andy. We hope the natural progression of climate science means that we know more in 2015 than we did 25 years ago, and that some of what we knew in 1990 was not entirely correct. But I didn’t make the conclusion you attribute to me. I didn’t say anything at all about the science of 1990 being incorrect, so I assume you are asking why the graph Steven deliberately used to deceive his readers was removed from the 1990 IPCC report. BTW, that 1990 report has been superseded a few times now. The 2013 report is much, much more up to date. It certainly seems disingenuous at best to require that everything in the 1990 report to be scientifically correct, when we all know that science doesn’t progress that way. If it did, we could still use the 1990 report, and there would be no need to produce a new report every few years.
But here is an explanation of that graph by one of your own. I don’t agree with it entirely, but it does prove my point: http://climateaudit.org/2008/05/09/where-did-ipcc-1990-figure-7c-come-from-httpwwwclimateauditorgp3072previewtrue/
“We hope the natural progression of climate science means that we know more in 2015 than we did 25 years ago”
Climate scientists, not so much..
They are STILL stuck with the misconceptions from 100 or more years ago.
The IPCC didn’t release a correction?
Heck, the geologists and biologists even have a name for this cooling.
Its called the NEOGLACIATION.
GISP/GRIP show that a cooler period starting about 4800BC was punctuated by the Minoan period then a relatively rapid cooling with bumps at the RWP and MWP to the coldest period of the LIA, then a small amount of warming to now.
https://edmhdotme.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/screen-shot-2015-05-25-at-11-09-40.png
AndyG55 said at 7:29 pm
…Mann’s hockey stick … introduced the world to the MASSIVE FRAUD that is AGW.
B I N G O !
After seeing that the same basic graph shape is produced by all the studies that have been done since Mann’s original one, and that no studies have disproved Mann’s original work, how can you all still believe Mann’s work is fraudulent?
As I understand your objection to Mann, it is only one of the last proxies that you claim is wrong, because that one proxy is computed from a few trees in Siberia while ignoring several other trees in the same area (for good reason, which you ignore). But when we leave out that one proxy, the hockey stick shape remains, so your objection, even if correct, does not invalidate the graph.
Furthermore, there is no need to use proxies for that end of the graph, because we KNOW what happened during that final period. We have actual thermometer data for it.
McKitrick has shown that Mann’s work is the absolute height of mathematical and statistical FARCE.
You know that
EVERYBODY knows that.
The fact that you can even pretend otherwise speaks heaps for you brain-washed IDIOCY !!!
No, Andy. In the first place, if your understanding were true, it would invalidate all the studies that have replicated the hockey stick graph. McKitrick did not do that. Again, the objection to Mann’s work was one proxy. When you and McKitrick leave out that proxy, the hockey stick shape is still apparent. And, again, we don’t even need a proxy for that part of the graph because we have thermometer data for it. We KNOW what happened there, and it is the blade of the hockey stick.
Again, you are WRONG as always.
Once you leave out Mann’s twisted and upside down proxies, there is NOTHING
And once you leave out his childish interpretation of tree proxies, the MWP reappears.
Only a mathematical inept like you or Mann would consider grafting fudged short term temperature data onto broad range proxies.
Its anti-science.. and if you ever did any real maths, you would know that.
You can’t seriously be defending Mann’s hockey stick !!
Are you really trying to make even more of a FOOL of yourself than you already have ????
You are now coming across as purely a LOW-END PROPAGANDA MONKEY !!
Sad.. because I though you might have had at least some basic intelligence.
“the hockey stick shape is still apparent”
The hockey stick shape was STILL apparent when the Mann’s little program was fed random noise..
He just helped it along with cherry-picked and upside down data.
Truly one of the biggest scientific FRAUDS ever carried out.
And YOUR name is now associated with strongly supporting that FRAUD.
The last bit of that where I did not double check my blockquotes
Further down
Toinen esimerkki on arvovaltaisessa Science-lehdessä hiljattain julkaistu tutkimus, jossa arktisten alueiden keskilämpötilojen todetaan olevan nyt korkeammalla kuin kertaakaan aikaisemmin kahteen tuhanteen vuoteen. Tulos saattaa hyvinkin olla totta, mutta tapa jolla tutkijat tähän päätyvät, herättää kysymyksiä. Proksi-aineistoja on on otettu mukaan valikoidusti, niitä on pilkottu, manipuloitu, silotettu ja yhdistelty – ja esimerkiksi omien kollegoideni aiemmin Suomesta keräämät aineistot on jopa käännetty ylösalaisin, jolloin lämpimät jaksot muuttuvat kylmiksi ja päinvastoin. Normaalisti tällaista pidettäisiin tieteellisenä väärennöksenä, jolla on vakavat seuraukset.
to
Another example is a study recently published in the prestigious journal Science. It is concluded in the article that the average temperatures in the Arctic region are much higher now than at any time in the past two thousand years. The result may well be true, but the way the researchers ended up with this conclusion raises questions. Proxies have been included selectively, they have been digested, manipulated, filtered, and combined, for example, data collected from Finland in the past by my own colleagues has even been turned upside down such that the warm periods become cold and vice versa. Normally, this would be considered as a scientific forgery, which has serious consequences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Do you wonder that Mikey has to resort to the courts to keep people from laughing?
…. and the actual thermometer data does NOT match GISS or HadCrut !!
There has been a small amount of NATURAL warming out of the COLDEST period of the last 10,000 years.
Be very THANKFUL about that.
WRONG Again!
Peer-reviewed paper in
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT
VOLUME 14 · NUMBER 6 · 2003
ISSN 0958-305X
CORRECTIONS TO THE MANN et. al. (1998) PROXY DATA BASE AND NORTHERN HEMISPHERIC AVERAGE TEMPERATURE SERIES
Mikey Mann released his Hockey Stick shortly after the Byrd – Hagel Senate Resolution was passed.
Interesting POLITICAL timing HMMMmmmm?
On top of that Mikey’s Hokey Stick wiped out both the Medieval Warming Period and the Little Ice Age, both of which are well documented THROUGH OUT THE WORLD.
Mikey’s unwillingness to release his data and model so others could attempt to duplicate his results despite required discovery in lawsuits HE initiated took it from the realm of science to mere political action. If it can not be verified and validated by other independent scientists it AIN’T SCIENCE.
Mann’s use of the Upside-Side Down Tiljander sediments took it from political to laughing stock especially when Mikey didn’t just use one Tiljander series upside down; he used all four of them upside down. And it gets even better. The Tiljander sediments wasn’t the only proxy used upside down in Mann et al 2008. Andy Baker said Mike had used one of Baker’s series upside down too.
Atte Korhola is a prominent Finnish paleolimnologist. He is familiar with the Tiljander and other sediments. (Two other Finnish series were also used upside down by Kaufman.) Korhola commented on the upside down use of Finnish proxy data.
part Translation of http://www.co2-raportti.fi/index.php?page=blogi&news_id=1370
to
And NO it is NOT just the last proxies.. Its the whole MESS that he constructs from his IGNORANCE of tree biology
He uses it to flatten the MWP , just like Hansen et al do everything they can to delete the 1940’s peak.
Its FRAUD… PURE AND SIMPLE
“Its FRAUD… PURE AND SIMPLE”
The really bizarre thing is that you say you have some maths training….
YET YOU STILL CONDONE this FRAUD.
There is something seriously wrong with your mental wiring, Martin. !!!
The ‘Team’ was well aware that Mann’s hokey stick stunk. (And so was Mann)
Climate gate e-mail 3555
One Tree in Yamal
to rule them all
Three Trees for the Bankster-kings under the crimson sky,
Seven for the Corporate-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Congressmen doomed to die,
One for the UN Lord on his New York throne
In Global Governance where Serfdom lies.
One Tree to rule them all, One Tree to find them,
One Tree to bring them all and into slavery bind them
In Global Governance where Serfdom lies.
—The Lord of Tree Rings, ClimAstrology graph
Sunshine hours has their 2015 global sea ice summary out now:
https://sunshinehours.wordpress.com/
Bottom line: Avg. Anomaly for 2015 (In version which eliminates the two weird spikes in the Antarctic data that the NOAA never corrected” = + 0.74
And here is the explanation of that graph. Steven really is trying to deceive you by using it the way he has:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/IPCC-Medieval-Warm-Period.htm
SkS does NOT give explanations.. they give PROPGANDA.
As long as you cling to their meaningless, ignorant junk science, that is all you will ever know.
Its called WILFUL IGNORANCE.. and its all you have.
“The trouble ain’t that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain’t distributed right.” — Mark Twain
“Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant; it’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.”
-Ronald Reagan
“Occasionally he stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.”
– Winston Churchill
Stumbles right over it… wondering if he tripped over his own feet.
He would not recognise the truth if it slapped him in the face.. again and again and again.
Andy, if you have not seen this before. A bit of Natural variability:
CET, NH and Global temperature vs North Atlantic- Arctic Warm/Cold currents balance
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/CGNh.htm
So what puts energy into the oceans?
https://web.archive.org/web/20130506055716/http://lasp.colorado.edu/sorce/images/instruments/sim/fig01.gif
http://www.john-daly.com/sverdrup.gif
CO2 doesn’t even rate as much as a flea on an elephants tail.
And not only does the EUV and UV vary, it also causes ozone to vary which heats or cools the stratosphere.
Recent variability of the solar spectral irradiance and its impact on climate modelling (2013)
Here is the first chart:
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/CGNh1.gif
More on the Hokey Stick:
Way back in 1997, researchers published a paper that was based on data from 6,000 plus borehole sites from all the continents. The reconstructed temperatures clearly showed a Medieval Period warming that was, and is, unprecedented. The data also makes clear that subsequent warming out of the Little Ice Age began well before the growth of human CO2 emissions and this natural rebound would obviously lead to temperatures similar to the Medieval Period. I have mention this rebound from the Little Ice Age before with peer-reviewed papers backing up the shift to modern warm period around the 1850s.
A year later, the infamous Hokey Stick temperature chart was published to wild acclaim by the IPCC and AGW-centric activists. So popular did the Hokey Stick become, the 6,000+ borehole chart was completely ignored since its data refuted the Mann study. The borehole scientists then decided to re-publish their study with primarily only the blue-side (the typical AGW-favored data cherry-picking) of the chart below. This repackaged borehole study became accepted by the AGW-centric scientists as it seemed to support their cause and the Mann’s hockey-stick…
Totally off topic-
In case anyone has been following the discussion Martin and I have had here:
https://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2015/12/28/simple-physics-settled-science/#comment-562096
I’ve thrown in the towel. I can’t take any more of that sniveling imbecile. I can’t debate someone who needs his own position spoon fed to him. If he doesn’t even understand the subject well enough to follow his own arguments, I guess I can’t expect him to follow mine. I always thought this was a parody:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17ocaZb-bGg
But I just lived it. Without even trying, I had him screaming about how wrong his favorite cartoonist site was. He completely lost track of which side he was on, while admonishing me for not accepting his wildly alternating positions. It’s a pity. In 15 years of begging, he’s the first true believer to (finally) agree to debate me. It would have been nice to get someone who could at least keep the basics straight.
Good night, all. I’ll get back to reading threads tomorrow.
Certainly he has absolutely ZERO idea what he is talking about.
He is, as you say, a complete imbecile.
As you have found out, incoherent garbage is all he is capable of.
You did try, I admire your patience against totally wilful ignorance.
When an idiot is absolutely determined to remain an idiot.. there is nothing you can do.
I have seen low-IQ 14 years olds present a more coherent argument than the little goreboy ever has.
You are a better man that I Ted to even hang in there this long.
Most honest objective Warmists when they look at the evidence turn into skeptics.
This is from Dr Alley of the Greenland ice core temperature reconstruction. He seems more of a scientist and less an activist than the rest. It concerns Mikey’s Hokey stick where he says he Just doesn’t ‘get it’ and then reitterates the concerns skeptics have with tree rings. They do NOT measure temperature, just decent growing parameters like a bear defecating on the roots, good rainfall….
Climate gate e-mail 3234
I like to imagine that Martin sounds like Hal from space odyssey
Hey Ted! I have been following your discussion with Martin with a feeling similar to that of a bystander watching a train wreck take place. I would also say that you made a wonderful argument against the positive feedback position of CAGW. I was especially impressed by the clarity of your comments that:
“To use your own analogy, X=present temperature, Y=CO2+H20, Z=increased energy from the sun
You accept that X+Y raises temperatures.
You accept that X+Z raises temperatures.
You accept that X+Y+Z raises temperatures.
What I’m saying is that, because Y>Z, X+Y-Z must be greater than X, in all cases. As long as Y remains, the net forcing is always positive, in comparison to X, therefore temperature can never return to the value of X, once Y is introduced.”
Good job, Ted! You deserve some sort of “above and beyond” commendation.
Jason, the point both you and Ted don’t get is that when Z decreases because the Milankovitch cycles change, Y and X also decrease. Once Z begins to decrease because earth’s orbit and orientation toward the sun change that way, first X begins to decrease, and then Y begins to decrease. The rates of decrease of both X and Y increase, with Y’s rate increasing most. Neither of you understand that. I think you just don’t want to see it.
Thanks for spelling that out for me though, using X, Y, and Z. I thought that’s what Ted was saying, but his attempt wasn’t as clear as yours. I hope you see where you are both wrong now.
“The rates of decrease of both X and Y increase, with Y’s rate increasing most.”
That’s more of your arrant nonsense, but let’s see what it means.
Why would the decreasing rate of Y be increasing the most? (Y=CO2+H2O)
CO2 is still going up, are you saying that H2O effect is coming down and outpacing the effect of CO2?
Are you saying that H2O is the main driver of the atmospheric greenhouse effect?
We know that.
Dumbass-
Do you see the quotes in Jason’s response. HE WAS DIRECTLY QUOTING ME. If you’re too stupid to understand it the first time, why should anyone care what you think of it the second time?
https://coloradowellington.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/troll-happy-did-well.jpg
He certainly is UNBELIEVABLY DUMB, isn’t he. ! 🙂
Poor little goreboy. !
“If you’re too stupid to understand it the first time,”
Marty will not understand it the first time.
.
.
.
.
or the second time..
or the third time..
or the fourth time..
ad infinitum !!!
Ted, what happened to civility? If you are attacking my character because I refuted your XYZ statement, fine, but I did refute it. Your thinking is wrong. If I have misunderstood your XYZ statement, please explain it, because as it is written, your conclusion is wrong.
Z stops increasing when the Milankvitch cycles reverse. Z begins to decrease then, and it decreases for the remainder of the cycle. As it decreases, X and Y also decrease. Recall that when Z is at its maximum, X and Y are also at their maxima. You can think of X decreasing both because Z decreases and because Y decreases. The rate at which Y decreases will increase because as the winters get longer and colder, more CO2 leaves the atmosphere and is stored. The decrease in the feedback Y becomes the major contributor to the decrease in the current temperature X. It overwhelms the decrease in Z, just as it overwhelms the increase in Z during the warming.
The above explanation has been my explanation all along, and it is also the SKS explanation. If you still claim to see a contradiction, what is it?
Heh. Ted called you a dumbass.
Cry me a river. I have documented some of your actual character attacks on Steven Goddard shortly after you appeared on this blog. Personal attacks have been your modus operandi from the very beginning. The Internet may not be forever, Martin, but for now your record is easily accessible. You are not fooling anybody.
“I refuted your XYZ statement, fine, but I did refute it.”
BULLSHIT.
Your mind is so confused you have no idea what you said and didn’t say.
You have presented NOTHING , as usual.
For Ted: The bottom line with CO2
There are two ways CO2 can force a temperature increase:
(a) Hold the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere constant, and increase the amount of solar energy reaching earth.
(b) Hold the amount of solar energy reaching earth constant, and increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
We know (b) is happening now, Ted. I’m not saying the amount of solar energy reaching earth is actually constant; I’m saying that, whichever way it is changing now, up or down, it is happening so slowly that it can not be causing anything but a small fraction of the warming we have seen over the last 100+ years, and which is continuing right now.
Thanks for your patience, Ted. I can’t see how even Andy or gator could possibly misinterpret or misunderstand this post, but I know they will try. I hope you won’t.
Nothing to misinterpret……. Its just WRONG.
There is NO mechanism that will allow CO2 to increase temperature of an open atmosphere.
This has been explained to you so many times, but you still cling to your misguided ill-educated beliefs.
“There is NO mechanism that will allow CO2 to increase temperature of an open atmosphere.”
This is the mechanism you claim doesn’t exist: “The greenhouse effect works like this: Energy arrives from the sun in the form of visible light and ultraviolet radiation. The Earth then emits some of this energy as infrared radiation. Greenhouse gases in the atmosphere ‘capture’ some of this heat, then re-emit it in all directions – including back to the Earth’s surface.”
If this mechanism did not exist, earth would be about 30C colder than it is now, and you would not exist.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-co2-enhanced-greenhouse-effect.htm
CO2 does NOT re-emit below about 15km. That is a proven fact.
Any absorption below that is immediately passed to the rest of the atmosphere and dealt with by convection and conduction like any other energy.
There is absolutely NO mechanism that allows CO2 to trap heat or energy in the open atmosphere.
The so-called greenhouse effect is actually an atmospheric mass effect, as shown on all other planets that have an atmosphere.
FFS Marty.. go and LEARN something before you keep yabbering false SkS nonsense.
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/global_warming/images/stratospheric_cooling.jpg
The black dotted line is the tropopause. The graph shows IR emitted by CO2, water and ozone as labeled.
The end of that URL is global_warming/images/stratospheric_cooling
OOPs…
Ted, I forgot to say here that (a) is what happens at the equilibrium point in the Milankovitch cycles when the system switches from cooling to warming. You still seem confused about that. Then, after (a), (b) begins. (b) soon overwhelms (a), although (a) continues. That is what the SKS quote you keep throwing at me is saying. It doesn’t contradict anything.
The only person confused here is YOU.
You are so dumb that you don’t even see how confused and just downright WRONG you are.
Ted, the SKS site is not wrong on this subject; my position does not differ from theirs, and my position has not changed. I’m sorry you through in the towel, but throwing in the towel does mean you lost. I didn’t think we were in a competition. I thought I was just answering your questions. I am truly sorry I made you so unhappy.
How embarrassing. That should be “threw in the towel.” I’m sorry you threw in the towel, Ted.
I’m truly sorry that you are so ignorant.
You again mis-interpret Ted’s position.
He has given up because he has come to the natural conclusion that you are a BRAIN-WASHED IDIOT who is impervious to anything resembling REAL DATA.
Now go back to your SkS sandpit and scoop up some more of their poop.. Its the only thing you seem to be able to do.
Andy-
You put it better than I could.
Martin-
I wish you no ill will. But as your people are so fond of saying, the debate is over. It’s not a matter of winning or losing. I had hoped you could explain your side coherently, in a way that might make some sense of the enormous logical holes I see in it. You failed, miserably. You demonstrated that I already understand your position more thoroughly than you do, so there’s simply no point in us continuing. Thank you for trying. I’m sorry nothing came of it.
” I had hoped you could explain your side coherently, in a way that might make some sense of the enormous logical holes I see in it. You failed, miserably. You demonstrated that I already understand your position more thoroughly than you do, so there’s simply no point in us continuing. Thank you for trying. I’m sorry nothing came of it.”
Ted, stop running away. If I have misunderstood your XYZ statement, please explain it, because as it is written, your conclusion is wrong.
Z stops increasing when the Milankvitch cycles reverse. Z begins to decrease then, and it decreases for the remainder of the cycle. As it decreases, X and Y also decrease. Recall that when Z is at its maximum, X and Y are also at their maxima. You can think of X decreasing both because Z decreases and because Y decreases. The rate at which Y decreases will increase because as the winters get longer and colder, more CO2 leaves the atmosphere and is stored. The decrease in the feedback Y becomes the major contributor to the decrease in the current temperature X. It overwhelms the decrease in Z, just as it overwhelms the increase in Z during the warming.
The above explanation has been my explanation all along, and it is also the SKS explanation. If you still claim to see a contradiction, what is it?
ROFLMAO..
So, the CO2 comes from the oceans and goes back to the oceans.
Means we don’t need to do anything about cutting CO2 emissions.
Thanks for playing.. child-mind. 🙂
I like to imagine Martin sounds like Hal from space odyssey.
With the same broken logic circuits. Of course broken logic circuits seems to be a necessary attribute for rank and file Climate Alarmists. They emote all over you instead of thinking.
I like to imagine that, too, dick.
Unfortunately for you, you are more like a TRS-80.
Needs to be consigned to the rubbish dump.
I think he would sound like Zachary Smith from Lost in Space; “The pain, Oh! the pain”
He must like it, masochistic worm that he is.
Keeps coming back for more.
Andy, when it says “For Ted,” that means not for you. Resist the temptation to make a fool of yourself by posting yet another of your non sequiturs.
You are constantly making a fool of yourself. Its all you have.
You leave battered and bruised at each visit, and are so mentally SICK that you enjoy it.
Its a public forum, I will reply to your MORONIC NONSENSE if I like.
-7C in Oslo. Good thing you have lots of hydro power up there, hey.
And that Norway can continue to survive by selling it FOSSIL-FUEL.
Might be interesting this time next year though, once the La Nina starts to bite.
LOL..
Just imagine if Norway was trying to exist energywise, on frozen wind turbines and snow covered solar panels.
Yet that is what these FOOLS would wish on other northern countries.
It is sick, and it is disgusting.. It is Martin.
But Andy gave the same response I would have, so it all works out the same.
I don’t read Andy, Ted. His replies are inane. Speak for yourself, or admit your thinking is wrong: If I have misunderstood your XYZ statement, please explain it, because as it is written, your conclusion is wrong.
Z stops increasing when the Milankvitch cycles reverse. Z begins to decrease then, and it decreases for the remainder of the cycle. As it decreases, X and Y also decrease. Recall that when Z is at its maximum, X and Y are also at their maxima. You can think of X decreasing both because Z decreases and because Y decreases. The rate at which Y decreases will increase because as the winters get longer and colder, more CO2 leaves the atmosphere and is stored. The decrease in the feedback Y becomes the major contributor to the decrease in the current temperature X. It overwhelms the decrease in Z, just as it overwhelms the increase in Z during the warming.
The above explanation has been my explanation all along, and it is also the SKS explanation. If you still claim to see a contradiction, what is it?
“more CO2 leaves the atmosphere and is stored”
ROFLMAO.. so funny.
If it is stored, then we don’t need to worry about it.
Your explanations are those of a 5 year old.
“If it is stored, then we don’t need to worry about it.”
We are discussing the natural glacial/interglacial cycle, Andy. So, even though this stored CO2 will come back out again on the next cycle, we don’t need to worry about it, because it works naturally.
What we need to worry about is the unnatural CO2 increase that we are causing by burning fossil fuels. That CO2 is increasing the greenhouse effect. The mechanism is that molecules of CO2 absorb infrared radiation that is emitted from the surface, and then those molecules radiate that energy in all directions. Some of the energy is radiated back down to the surface again. That energy is called AGW.
Where is this CO2 ‘stored’ Martin? Normally when I store something, it’s in the shed or a draw ….. where I can find it again.
You people have have been trying to find this ‘stored’ heat for around 20 years …. do you want a torch, it might be hiding in the dark.
“Where is this CO2 ‘stored’ Martin?”
“You people have have been trying to find this ‘stored’ heat for around 20 years”
CO2, Bruce. Not heat. CO2. If you actually don’t know how and where CO2 gets stored when earth goes into a glacial period, how on earth can you claim to understand this subject?
I’m going to assume you really do know where the CO2 is stored.
I know where 40,000ppm of it is stored ….. in my lungs. And do you what? All of it comes out when I exhale.
Marty, you do realise that temperatures drive CO2, Even the latest EPICA and VOSTOK ice-cores show that.
Here is the crux of Martin’s blind spot:
A couple problems with that logic.
#1. It leaves out any and all other possible forcings.
#2. Even NASA has backed off “the Sun is Constant” position.
I have toss out a zillion papers on the solar-ozone-climate connection as just one example.
Here is another paper from NASA.
Pop Article: NASA Finds Sun-Climate Connection in Old Nile Records
Actual Paper: Is solar variability reflected in the Nile River?
If you look there are a ton of papers on the Sun-Monsoon connection. So that gives you Sun + Water and not CO2 + water.
Evidence for solar forcing on the Indian monsoon during the last millennium 2001
Solar forcing of the Indian summer monsoon variability during the Ållerød period September 2013
A try at modeling:
Simulation of the Indian monsoon and its variability during the last millennium
http://eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen/165pal~1.pdf
Note the point he makes about the Monsoons and the climate of the Eocene.
Martin’s problem is that he so full of SkS kool-aide that he is incapable of understanding or accepting anything else, no matter how much data and real proof is available.
TSI may seem to be relatively constant, but Solar radiation is NOT constant..
The solar spectrum varies markedly throughout each solar cycle.
Nor is the Solar magnetic field constant, nor anything else about the sun.
The latter part of last century, where there was a short term (20 years or so) warming trend was marked by a series of very strong solar cycles, called a Grand Solar Maximum by one of the world’s top solar scientists.
The AGW have to ignore this fact to make their lies and misinformation stick.
And Martin continues that IGNORANCE.
“and which is continuing right now.”
He implies that warming is continuing, when its not.
AGAIN he LIES in his underhanded fashion.
The only warming at the moment is coming totally from the current El Nino, which has absolutely nothing to do with CO2, but is all about ocean currents.
Actually AndyG,
There is some evidence that El Nino is also sun driven.
Variable Solar UV ===> variable Ozone ===> variable wind in the Antarctic.
The Antarctic Circumpolar current is a wind driven current. If the winds are stronger more cold water is diverted from the Antarctic Circumpolar current up the side of South America as the Humboldt current. This is the cold current that gives El Nino it’s name.
On top of that is the sun connection to monsoon rains I already documented yesterday.
From Wiki
Bob Tisdale documents the trade winds and ENSO connection.
…………………
Many of the bits and pieces showing the sun controls the climate are out there as peer reviewed papers but there is no way in Hades any scientist is going to gather them all together and present them as a coherent picture. Unfortunately that means I have to string together all the various papers showing those bits and pieces and hope others can also see how they make a coherent whole.
“There is some evidence that El Nino is also sun driven.”
Yep. I knew that.
I type the headlines, but I’m really not a good writer and an even worse typist.
It would take me ages to type the detail you do.
… so I hope you will continue to fill in those details. 🙂
Andy, I am a rotten typist. I never took typing. However all my posting trying to counter this CAGW crap has made me a LOT faster.
(And now you know why I prefer to copy and paste so much.)
Gail, we are discussing CO2, not the other forcings. That’s why the other forcings are left out. Nor did I claim the sun is constant. NASA and I have never claimed the sun is constant. Here is the crux of your blindspot: The sun’s output has decreased over the period of most of the global average temperature increase of the last 50 years.
Yes Marty.. leave out all the other forcings.. all those that you have absolutely NO IDEA about.
That way you can blame everything on CO2.. roflmao.
You are a very funny little non-entity …. with zero idea what you are talking about.
The sun’s output did not decrease over the short period of warming last century .
THAT IS A LIE. and you know it.
Perpetually LYING seems to be the only thing you are capable of.
The latter half of last century was classed as a GRAND SOLAR MAXIMUM by one of the world’s leading solar scientists.
Can you explain this latest Vostok ice-core data that shows the highest CO2 levels, yet the lowest temperatures in the past +400,000 years?
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh154/crocko05/Temp%20vs%20CO2%20-%20400000%20years_zpskyy0qvra.jpg
I assume this is what you are looking for:
Historical Carbon Dioxide Record from the Vostok Ice Corehttp://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/vostok.html
And here:
Ice Core Data Help Solve a Global Warming Mysteryhttp://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ice-core-data-help-solve/
” Nor did I claim the sun is constant”
You LYING PIECE OF SLIME……… here it is in your own words.
“(b) Hold the amount of solar energy reaching earth constant, and increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
We know (b) is happening now,….”
You have just said solar energy is constant.
That’s the trouble when you tell LIE after LIE after LIE..
You forget just which LIES you have told.
Tell me Martin, how can this current ‘interglacial’ have the highest CO2 levels, but have the lowest temps in the past +400,000 years?
Better run off to SkS to try and find an answer …… unfortunately there isn’t a climate scientist to be found over there …… NONE, NADA, ZIP!
Do you realise Marty, that only 20% of the past +400,000 years has been above the 1961-1990 ‘global average temperature’? And this current ‘global warming period’ has been the lowest!!!
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh154/crocko05/Past%20400000%20year%20temps_zpsmqmty7yo.jpg
Bruce, You will find out pretty quickly that Marty doesn’t realise ANYTHING.
He is seriously brain-washed DUMB.
Not sure what you are getting at, Bruce. What makes the current warming unique is that we are causing it. AGW is the only cause that explains all the data we have observed since the beginning of the industrial revolution. None of the known natural causes, individually or in total, can account for more than a small fraction of the temperature increase we have observed.
But if you can propose a natural cause or causes that works, I want to hear about it.
What makes the current warming unique is that we are causing it.
LIAR!!! You have had your nose rubbed in this almost daily for weeks, and yet you still lie. What a pile of crap you are.
Let’s try again, shall we?
1- List all climate forcings, order them from most to least effectual, and then quantify them all.
2- Please provide even one peer reviewed paper that refutes natural variability as the cause of recent, or any, global climate changes.
There is nothing unusual or unprecedented about our climate, or how we got here. For 4,500,000,000 years climates have always changed, naturally. This means there has been a set precedent, and the burden of proof falls on natural climate change deniers like yourself.
It is impossible to claim man is responsible, and each time you do, you lie.
OK Marty, show us all the peer-reviewed AND proven study that proves;
“What makes the current warming unique is that we are causing it.”
BTW Marty, our current ‘we caused it’ warming is the lowest in 400,000 years.
The big, bright thing in the sky – those white fluffy things also in the sky – which have been covering the big bright thing for the past three days and releasing some wet stuff (quite a lot wet stuff actually) at my location, and what covers 70% of this planet – the other wet stuff.
5% of 0.04% is going to do SFA.
Martin says
Gail, it is next to impossible to read what you have posted because of the improper formatting. Try to post without formatting and let the WordPress system format it for you.
“Unfortunately you can not do that because of confounding and because CO2 is a dependent variable and not an independent variable.”
I’m not running an experiment, Gail. CO2 is a known greenhouse gas. I assume you aren’t disputing that. It means that CO2 can force the global average temperature to increase in two ways:
(1) If the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is constant and the energy reaching earth from the sun increases;
(2) If the amount of energy reach earth from the sun is constant and the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increased.
In both cases, the global average temperature will rise. In nature, however, we never have either of these processes working in its pure form. In nature, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is always changing, and the amount of energy reaching earth from the sun is always changing. But in nature, the changes in both are tiny, so that the resulting changes in temperature will be negligible, or nearly so, over the timescale we are interested in: The time from the beginning of the industrial revolution to the present and from the present to the year 2100. Over both these time periods, for all practical purposes, both the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the amount of energy reaching earth from the sun should be so close to constant that their changes should be very small over the two periods we are interested in.
But the only forcing variable that has changed substantially over the first time period (the industrial revolution) is the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. It has changed from below 300 to 400 now, and the cause is anthropogenic.We are adding CO2 to the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels. That’s the only variable of interest now. It is true that the sun will likely reach a grand solar minimum, but that will barely make a dent in AGW.
First I reposted that comment with correct formating below.
………..
Second “I’m not running an experiment, Gail. CO2 is a known greenhouse gas. I assume you aren’t disputing that.”
Yes you are, or rather the ClimAstrologists are. You can not say CO2 rose and temperature rose therefore CO2 is what caused the temperature rise WITHOUT identifying every single factor that can cause temperature change and account for their effect numerically.
THIS HAS NOT BEEN DONE!
That is why I post and repost this specific paper written in 2013. Recent variability of the solar spectral irradiance and its impact on climate modelling
That paper POINT BLANK say the IPCC HAS NOT LOOKED AT VARIABILITY OF THE SUN!
For the first time, a comprehensive comparison and discussion of all relevant SSI measurements and models available for climate studies is presented, as well as a first investigation of their impacts on Earth’s climate within a number of different CCMs.
Since I have shown that the Earth has been in a Grand Solar Maximum AND that NASA has only recently found out the IR wavelength sthat form and destroy ozone vary A LOT, ClimAstrologists have no business assigning temperature change to CO2 based on a correlation that often fails.
And that is not even getting into the effects of the moon and what ever else.
http://static.themetapicture.com/media/funny-women-underwear-global-warming.jpg
See I could say women’s fashion causes climate change.
There was no doubt that global cooling was a serious phenomenon. Although the threat was eminent, neither the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) nor other groups concerned with the global warming issue have ever showed any interest in analyzing the pronounced global cooling. The half century climate change occurred without any implication of the CO2. Then what was the determinant factor? Nothing out of the ordinary happened. Throughout the early 20th century, nature resumed its course. No serious earthquake, tsunami, meteorite fall, sunspots occurred. Industrial plants and combustion machines abundantly released smoke, soot, sulfate, carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, but, instead of a global warming, the world clime cooled down. The only serious event which took place for three years in European waters and for four years at a global level (since 1942) was the warfare.The conduction of a naval war at a global level and the turning and churning of huge sea areas in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans lead to the inevitable. Climate changed dramatically into a colder one, for four decades. Oceans and seas which had undergone a strong warming during World War I became now significantly colder. This change lasted approximately half a century.
Yes, we remember. One war cooled the Earth and the other warmed it.
I think this one cooled it, too. Big time. 😀
https://coloradowellington.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/grande-armee-in-russia-1812.jpg
That calls for The Best Graphic Display of Information Colorado.
http://scimaps.org/images/maps/865W/IT_01_04_Napoleons-March.jpg
I had a large poster of that hanging in my office at work.
To be quite honest, the globe has been cooling for the past +400,000 years. Infact, the warm ‘Interglacials’ only account for 20% of temps above the 1961-1990 ‘global average temperature’ over that +400,000 year period.
http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh154/crocko05/Past%20400000%20year%20temps_zpsmqmty7yo.jpg
Graph can be found in this Nov 2015 study/discussion which uses the latest EPICA (Antarctica) ice-core data;
https://2020globalsciencereviewuk.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/global-temperature-variability-reviewed.pdf
You will also notice that our ‘Holocene’ period has been the lowest in that +400,000 year period.
As well as the most stable. That is why the whining and wingeing is so funny.
http://www.preparedsociety.com/images/1/7/6/4/0/sky-falling-123.jpg
Unfortunately Gail, the sky is falling here at my home location (east coast NSW, Aust).
+90mm (and still raining) since 9:00am this morning, +170mm since Sunday.
Bloody weather!
Yep, its pretty horrible . isn’t it Bruce.
Looks like continuing tomorrow and further, as well 🙁
Forecast gives us a fine Saturday.. maybe.
Must be ‘climate change’.
It’s the only thing I can think of.
Well I wish it would bloody well change back !
I want summer !!
“I want summer !!”
Don’t throw out your jumpers yet.
BTW, 105mm, and still raining
Going by Sky Weather and NBN, tonight/tomorrow is supposed to be the worst.
Not a pleasant outlook , is it. !
http://www.weatherzone.com.au/nsw/hunter/newcastle
The temperature is dropping like a rock here in Sunny mid North Carolina. We went from 45F (7C) @ 2:00 am when I got up to 23F (minus 5C) to now @ 8:00 am. My feet are bloody freezing!
My poor goats still haven’t stuck their noses outside the shed despite the sun.
Definitely climate change Gail …. weathers got nothing to do with it.
Thanks for being honest, Bruce, but I don’t see that you have a point. The planet has warmed 1C now because of AGW. Without the natural cooling you claim, the increase would be even higher. If you are arguing that we shouldn’t completely end the burning of fossil fuels, I agree with you there, and I think most climate scientists would too. What we have to do is stop burning fossil fuels to generate electricity and to power private cars for moving people around. That’ll do it!
Well Marty, YOU set the example …. stop using fossil fuels! Do not buy or use a single product made by fossil fuels (clothing, food, EV’s (and their charging), mobile phone, the very computer you are probably using, the A/C used to keep you cool during this period of human induced global warming, etc, etc, etc.
Practice what you preach Marty ….. otherwise …. STFU!
And to just add Marty, we have no idea just how much the earth has warmed because of ‘AGW’. The so-called land+ocean surface temps have been adjusted that many times you can’t even tell what the global temp was yesterday …… let alone 150 years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ72fcHDUC8
(youtube)
DARN IT messed up the blockquotes again! (Told you I can type.)
Martin says ‘Gail, we are discussing CO2, not the other forcings. That’s why the other forcings are left out. Nor did I claim the sun is constant. NASA and I have never claimed the sun is constant. Here is the crux of your blindspot: The sun’s output has decreased over the period of most of the global average temperature increase of the last 50 years.’
……………….
First I will respond to ”We are discussing CO2, not the other forcings.”
Unfortunately you can not do that because of confounding and because CO2 is a dependent variable and not an independent variable.
Confounding variables (aka third variables) are variables that the researcher failed to control, or eliminate, damaging the internal validity of an experiment.
Believe me confounding variables are a royal PITA when you are doing research or trouble shooting failed industrial processes. Those unknown unknowns will bite you every time.
A good explanation of ‘dependent’ at a kiddie site.
If you stick CO2 and temperature in that sentence as the website suggests with
CO2 = (Independent variable)
temperature = (Dependent Variable)
you get.
CO2 causes a change in temperature and it isn’t possible that temperature could cause a change in CO2.
We know this is not a true statement because of Henry’s law. If you heat up water it out gases CO2.
………………
What about the reverse?
If you stick CO2 and temperature in that sentence as the website suggests with
CO2 = (Dependent variable)
temperature = (Independent Variable)
you get.
Temperature causes a change in CO2 and it isn’t possible that CO2 could cause a change in temperature.
Thanks to Henry’s law we know the first part of the statement is true but the second half is not proven since the temperature has gone up and down while the CO2 has continued to increase. So at best you can say there is confounding, a second (or possibly more) factors more powerful than CO2 that interfere with the direct relationship.
The chart below is the plot of satellite atmospheric temperature measurements provided by RSS, plus CO2 measurements from NOAA showing a slice of time where CO2 did not cause the temperature to go up for what ever reason.
http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c017d3fdd3e93970c-800wi
“Unfortunately you can not do that because of confounding and because CO2 is a dependent variable and not an independent variable.”
I’m not running an experiment, Gail. CO2 is a known greenhouse gas. I assume you aren’t disputing that. It means that CO2 can force the global average temperature to increase in two ways:
(1) If the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is constant and the energy reaching earth from the sun increases;
(2) If the amount of energy reach earth from the sun is constant and the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is increased.
In both cases, the global average temperature will rise. In nature, however, we never have either of these processes working in its pure form. In nature, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is always changing, and the amount of energy reaching earth from the sun is always changing. But in nature, the changes in both are tiny, so that the resulting changes in temperature will be negligible, or nearly so, over the timescale we are interested in: The time from the beginning of the industrial revolution to the present and from the present to the year 2100. Over both these time periods, for all practical purposes, both the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the amount of energy reaching earth from the sun should be so close to constant that their changes should be very small over the two periods we are interested in.
But the only forcing variable that has changed substantially over the first time period (the industrial revolution) is the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. It has changed from below 300 to 400 now, and the cause is anthropogenic.We are adding CO2 to the atmosphere by burning fossil fuels. That’s the only variable of interest now. It is true that the sun will likely reach a grand solar minimum, but that will barely make a dent in AGW.
You fail to mention that the start of the Industrial Revolution and the end of the LIA were coincident
Martin says ‘Gail, we are discussing CO2, not the other forcings. That’s why the other forcings are left out. Nor did I claim the sun is constant. NASA and I have never claimed the sun is constant. Here is the crux of your blindspot: The sun’s output has decreased over the period of most of the global average temperature increase of the last 50 years.’
………….
Now I will take this statement. Here is the crux of your blindspot: The sun’s output has decreased over the period of most of the global average temperature increase of the last 50 years.’
No Marty that is not a ‘blind spot’ and it is just an incorrect statement on your part. It is well researched and not by me.
According to Usoskin et al. (2014), the Sun “shows strong variability in its magnetic activity, from Grand minima to Grand maxima and the present Grand Maximum of solar activity now tapering off is the most active in the past 3,000 years. Only four grand minima (including the modern one) have been longer than 70 years. Reference to the Modern Grand Solar Maximum is also found in (Usoskin et al., 2003c; Solanki et al., 2004)
A review of “A History of Solar Activity over Millennia” by Ilya G. Usoskinet al by Solar Physics can be found at the bottom of this comment.
A History of Solar Activity over Millennia
The DATA
A review of “A History of Solar Activity over Millennia” by Ilya G. Usoskin
@ Solar Physics
http://solarphysics.livingreviews.org/open?pubNo=lrsp-2008-3&page=articlesu16.html
Please do not confuse Marty with facts Gail ….. (rolls-eyes). Marty gets all his info from the world famous (97% consensus) cartoon site ….. SkepticalScience ….. OOOOH!
Bruce, you have mail.
Bugger going out to get the mail @ 12:35am ……. and it’s pissing down raining!
Gail, over the last few decades, total solar irradiance has decreased slightly. this corresponds to the period of most of the global average temperature increase.
Marty, Marty, Marty …. TSI is not the only ‘energy’ released by the sun. Its only been in the past decade or so that continuous and good quality Solar UV, EUV & Soft X-ray flux data has been measured by satellites, all of which have huge bearings on our climate and temperatures.
Never mind Marty, you just continue believing in the pseudo-science that SkS keeps feeding you ….. one day you might just wake-up, give your head a good shake, and say …. WTF?
Don’t forget the magnetic field that causes cosmic ray flux to change… or the Earth’s wandering North Pole that is galloping towards Siberia at a fast rate of the decrease in the earth’s own magnetic field. All of which can and does change the climate.
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/GSCp.gif
Land temp vs Solar Ap index
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/ApGLT.gif
http://www.vukcevic.talktalk.net/AT-GMF.gif
A heck of a lot more HERE.
Marty, I am NOT talking about total solar irradiance. That is a major simplification. There is much more to the sun. A room full of 100 midgets and 50 Giants may have the same height as a room full of average sized women but which room would you pick from for a basketball team to go against The Los Angeles Lakers?
Cycles 1 through 24. Only cycle 24 starting in 2009 is significantly lower. Also note the Ice Age Scare of the 1960/70s had low solar activity.
http://www.solen.info/solar/cycles1_24.png
And yes there has been a FALL off of temperature to correspond to the fall in solar activity (cycle 23/24) (Do not forget that the oceans are a major heat reserve that is no longer being replenished.)
http://www.climatechangedispatch.com/images/pics7/rss_glob_temp_anom_long-term.png
NASA
Between 2004 and 2007, the Solar Irradiance Monitor (blue line) measured a decrease in ultraviolet radiation (less than 400 nanometers) that was a factor of four to six larger than expected (black line). In the visible part of the spectrum (400 to 700 nanometers), SIM showed a slight increase in comparison to what was expected. Measurements (red) from another ultraviolet radiation-sensing instrument called SOLSTICE compare well with those from SIM.
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/506268main_sorce4b.jpg
Now look where that energy ends up in the ocean.
http://www.john-daly.com/sverdrup.gif
Those changes in wavelength are going to make a difference in the heat distribution of the ocean and who the heck knows what that is going to do.
Gail, you are talking to Marty who gets his wisdom from SkS, there was no such thing as a 1970’s ‘ice-age scare’.
Just wait, Marty will supply a SkS link.
BruceC,
Actually I am talking to the fence sitters who might read this blog.
Oh Marty, you have yet to explain why the current interglacial has the highest CO2 level yet the lowest temperature in +400,000 years.
OK, Marty.
Let’s start from the point that CO2 can cause warming.
(Steven Goddard our host and many others would agree with this. SEE: Greenhouse Effect For Dummies Again )
We then have to determine if this is a problem.
You are aware of the Milancovitch cycles. Well the Precession cycle has a periodicity of 23,000 years. Half Precession would therefore be 11,500 years. Turner (2002) (European pollen data) estimates the duration of the Eemian, the last interglacial, as 11,000 years. Muller (Eemian diatomite deposits) estimates 10,000 years +/- 1,000 years for the whole Eemian interglacial period. The Holocene is now over 11,700 years old. (Thank you Grand Solar Maximum)
The entire CO2 forcing is 32 to 44 W m–2 [cf., Reid, 1997]. and all but 5 to 6 W m–2 of that forcing occurs in the first 200 ppm CO2 (modtran – see graph below) A CO2 concentration where plants barely survive.
https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/co2_modtrans_img1.png
So it all comes down to Climate Sensitivity to CO2.
http://joannenova.com.au/globalwarming/graphs/log-co2/log-graph-lindzen-choi-web.gif
We can also look at this paper.
Temperature and precipitation history of the Arctic
So even if you are talking 9% of Trenbreth’s “incoming solar radiation… absolute forcing,… around 340 W m–2 at the top of the atmosphere” the reduction in solar radiation since the Holocene Climate Optimum is 30.6 W m–2. Or 10W m–2 = 1°C or less.
This decrease in solar energy is equivalent to the entire CO2 forcing [32-44 W m–2] with mankind’s contribution being 1.5 W/m 2 for the forcing of anthropogenic CO2 [cf., Reid, 1997].
…………………
Back to WHEN we are in the Holocene which is at the end.
To give you a feel for just how close to glaciation we are you can look at the calculations from a fall 2012 paper Can we predict the duration of an interglacial? The paper gives the calculated solar insolation values in June @ 65°N of several glacial inceptions:
Current value – insolation = 479W m−2 (from that paper) MIS 7e – insolation = 463 W m−2,
MIS 11c – insolation = 466 W m−2,
MIS 13a – insolation = 500 W m−2,
MIS 15a – insolation = 480 W m−2,
MIS 17 – insolation = 477 W m−2
So an increase in energy by 5 W m−2 gives a value of 484 W m−2, IF mankind can jack the CO2 levels back up to over 1000 ppm.
……..
Any hope that the Holocene would go long was shot down by Lisiecki and Raymo in 2005 in their rebuttal of Loutre and Berger, 2003. (The paper NOAA cites) No more recent papers has rebutted Lisiecki and Raymo in the decade since then. Not that the MSM would bother telling us that.
HEY, Marty did you read that? “current insolation values are not predicted to return to the high values of late MIS 11 for another 65 kyr.” That kills any possibility of a CAGW tipping point for the next 65 kyr. The solar energy just isn’t there and CO2 has already shot its wad in the first 200 ppm.
So tell me again WHY ever we would want to strip a critical gas for plant life from the atmosphere when it may be all that is standing between us and the next glaciation?