Wind Farms Killing Millions Of Birds And Bats

The corruption of the environmental movement is nowhere more evident than in their willingness to be paid off millions of dollars to ignore this.

ScreenHunter_7928 Mar. 14 22.39ScreenHunter_7929 Mar. 14 22.40

The Obama administration is issuing 30-year permits for “taking” (killing) bald and golden eagles. The great birds will be legally slaughtered “unintentionally” by lethal wind turbines installed in their breeding territories, and in “dispersion areas” where their young congregate (e.g. Altamont Pass).

By chance (if you believe in coincidences), a timely government study claims wind farms will kill “only” 1.4 million birds yearly by 2030 (1). This new report is just one of many, financed with taxpayers’ money, aimed at convincing the public that additional mortality caused by wind plants is sustainable. – It is not.

Dr. Shawn Smallwood’s 2004 study, spanning four years, estimated that California’s Altamont Pass wind “farm” killed an average of 116 Golden Eagles annually (2). This adds up to 2,900 dead “goldies” since it was built 25 years ago. Altamont is the biggest sinkhole for the species, but not the only one, and industry-financed research claiming that California’s GE population is stable is but a white-wash.


Golden eagle remains, Altamont Pass windfarm, California – courtesy of Darryl Mueller

Eagles are not the only victims. Smallwood also estimated that Altamont killed an average of 300 red-tailed hawks, 333 American kestrels and 380 burrowing owls annually – plus even more non-raptors, including 2,526 rock doves and 2,557 western meadowlarks.

In 2012, breaking the European omerta on wind farm mortality, the Spanish Ornithological Society (SEO/Birdlife) reviewed actual carcass counts from 136 monitoring studies. They concluded that Spain’s 18,000 wind turbines are killing 6-18 million birds and bats yearly (3).

Extrapolating that and similar (little publicized) German and Swedish studies, 39,000 U.S. wind turbines would not be killing “only” 440,000 birds (USFWS, 2009) or “just” 573,000 birds and 888,000 bats (Smallwood, 2013) (4), but 13-39 million birds and bats every year!

However, this carnage is being covered up by self-serving and/or politically motivated government agencies, wind industry lobbyists, environmental groups and ornithologists, under a pile of misleading studies paid for with more taxpayer money.

US windfarms kill 10-20 times more than previously thought | Save the Eagles International

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205 Responses to Wind Farms Killing Millions Of Birds And Bats

  1. 1957chev says:

    When you install huge wind turbines in places where birds fly, you are intentionally killing them.

  2. AndyG55 says:

    Only a true green environmental could let this avian devastation pass. !!

  3. Gail Combs says:


    These people are NOT conservationists.

  4. AndyG55 says:

    “These people are NOT conservationists”

    Yes they are.. you just ask them !!!

    But seriously.. this anti-CO2 farce has turned the green agenda into one massive, planet-destroying farce !!

    People who once would have tried to protect these lovely creatures, now just don’t care, in fact they destroy them wilfully, just for the sake of a misbegotten agenda.

  5. NancyG says:

    Why would Obama care if bald eagles were being killed? They’re only our national bird and he’s unAmerican.

  6. Humans always take a toll on wildlife. Buffaloes, wolves, elephants not to mention marine species, the list goes on. In this instance it is the misguided motivation that is condemnable.

  7. emsnews says:

    Where is the Audubon Society?

    National Geographic? The New York Times? All groups who have been very noisy about saving birds. Oh, only penguins count now.

  8. Alan Poirier says:

    Got into an argument with a wind promoter and pointed out how many raptors are killed by these windmills. He replied that cats kill more birds every year. Remember telling him that I’ve never seen a cat take down a bald eagle. Didn’t phase him in the least bit. They are willing to sacrifice everything in nature for Nature. This is the level of irrationality with which we are dealing.

    • Eric Simpson says:

      Or the wind promoting idiot could say “more birds die of natural causes then we kill every year with our wind turbines.” Oh, ok, the ghastly windmills are fine then. And cats kill little birds. I like the little birds too, but the wind monsters are killing every stripe of bird, large and small, proud eagles and cuddly doves, in great profusion. And windmills are killing them to extinction:

      An excerpt from WUWT:

      Then there were the useless windmills. These bat-blatting, bird-blending eyesores now grimly overshadow close to two-thirds of Scotland’s once-beautiful land mass. Tourist numbers in formerly beautiful areas of the countryside now scarred by this pointless industrialization of the landscape are nosediving.

      The subsidy farms are mincing the birds daily. Soon they will have wiped out all of these noble but fragile constituents in Scotland’s environment, in the name of – er – preserving the environment.

      Don’t get me started on the cost [of the windmills]…

      Before long, as the last eagles flutter to their bloody deaths at the foot of these cruel towers of steel…

    • annieoakley says:


  9. Tel says:

    If you shot the same bird with a gun they would throw you in the slammer forever, and use you as an example of why guns are so dreadful.

    By they way, those loops of barbed wire on top of fences also kill bats, because the bats see it as a nice place to land (they aren’t all that smart) and then entangle themselves and the wire stabs them in the guts, so they die slowly.

    Loops of razor wire on top of fences kill bats much the same way, but faster.

  10. dave g says:

    Should have detectors go off when one is killed so can donate the meat to the poor. Tastes like chicken?

  11. Byron says:

    Wind industrial estates fulfill the primary requirements straight out of the Green environmental solution playbook .

    1) Does it inconvenience or endanger humans…..Yes/No ……………..If Yes approved
    2) Is it beneficial to the environment ………Yes/No ………………………………Who cares ? see 1)

  12. chick20112011 says:

    Did the Obama Administration issue taking (killing permits) for the Delta Smelt? (Joaquin Valley, California, water usage fight)

  13. bleakhouses says:

    They are willing to use the EPA to shut down private use of private land if it even allegedly threatens the habitat of an “important” sub-species much less with a presentation of evidence of harm but they will allow this to happen.

    These people, to quote U2,
    “And I must be an acrobat
    To talk like this
    And act like that”

  14. Robertv says:

    Those who don’t care about the wildlife don’t care about your health.

    Like ObamaCare is not about your health Green energy is not about the environment.

  15. gator69 says:

    A few years ago a Bald Eagle was found to have been shot about twenty miles from my home. You would have thought that somebody shot the POTUS. Every form of law enforcement was brought to bear and the countryside scoured until the perps were found and had the book thrown at them.

  16. An Inquirer says:

    The actual number of birds and bats killed by wind farms might be rather speculative, but we got some groans and laughs by watching one study conducted by government researchers. When the state of Minnesota mandated the installation of wind farms a couple of decades ago, they wanted to see how many birds were killed. So they hired researchers at Mankato State University who made the 5 hour (round) trip twice a week to count the carcasses under the windmills. Of course, they would only see the fresh kills; the coyotes and other predators carried off the majority of the victims long before. There are many in global warming discussion who advise to listen and obey to the authority of scientists; if this indicates what passes for science in global warming, the appeal to authority argument is ludicrous.

    Of course, it could be a coincidence, but the mosquito population surged in the area after the erection of the windmills, and the decimation to the bat population could be the reason. Not that the farmers complained — the hundreds of thousands of dollars in “rent” made the increased mosquito bites worthwhile.

    • rah says:

      An oil spill, even though has some effect that lasts for a time, is a transient event. The wind farms though appear to be here for some time to come and are like a still increasing oil slick that will last much longer.

      During WW II Aruba was the main terminal port for the transport of oil from S. America to the US. The Lago refinery was one of the largest refineries in the world at the time as measured by production. U-boats sank tankers going and coming from there at a pretty good clip for over three and even shelled the island and refinery and torpedoed tankers moored there. And then there was the residue just from the tankers operations. The whole island was surrounded by a massive slick for years. On a dark moonless night a vessel navigating without radar could even find the place by approaching down wind and following the scent of the crude.

      Now the beaches and waters that were perpetually covered with an oil film during WW II make tourism the top money maker in for the islands economy.

  17. Chris Barron says:

    Here we go again on this side issue……seriously, is the only thing anyone has to complain about wind turbines that they kill a tiny proportion of birds when compared to cars (8million per year) or windows (nearly as many as cars)

    You’re all welcome to jump in your cars and drive to Washington to complain…killing more birds along the way than the turbines will.

    13th March 2015 – 80,000 birds killed due to more outbreaks of avian flu in Taiwan, China. Link

    12th March 2015 – 40,000 birds to be killed due to avian flu in Arkansas, America. Link

    12th March 2015 – 30,000 birds killed due to avian flu in Barneveld, Netherlands. Link

    12th March 2015 – Hundreds of dead fish found floating in a lake in Yate, New Caledonia. Link

    11th March 2015 – Hundreds of TONS of clams have died off, ‘never happened before like this’ in Ha Tinh, Vietnam. Link

    11th March 2015 – 200+ TONS of dead fish wash ashore along the coast of Montevideo, 200 Tons of dead fish in UraguayUraguay. Link

    10th March 2015 – Large die off of ducks during winter on Long Island, New York, America. Link

    10th March 2015 – Hundreds of dead fish found floating in a pond in Uppsala, Sweden. Link

    10th March 2015 – Tens of thousands of birds to be killed due to avian flu in Missouri, America. Link

    9th March 2015 – Hundreds of dead turtles, plus hundreds of dead fish found in Bocas del Toro, Panama. Link

    9th March 2015 – 250,000 birds killed due to avian flu in Monywa, Myanmar. Link

    9th March 2015 – Hundreds of dead fish found on a beach in Tolu, Colombia. Link

    9th March 2015 – 19 dead turtles found on Pulau Tiga Island in Malaysia. Link

    9th March 2015 – 100+ cattle have died ‘due to suspected grass poisoning’ in Gujarat, India. Link

    8th March 2015 – 550 dead animals (mainly deer) found, ‘due to snow and cold’ in Leon, Spain. Link

    7th March 2015 – 1,450 Sea lion pups have washed ashore this year ill and dying – ‘possibly 10,000 have died’ in California, America. Link

    7th March 2015 – Thousands of dead fish wash up in new die off in Lim Chu Kang, Singapore. Link

    6th March 2015 – 600 TONS of dead fish due to algae in fish farms in the east of Singapore. Link

    6th March 2015 – Massive die off of prawns, ’cause unknown’ in Aroor, India. Link

    6th March 2015 – 15,000 turkeys dead due to avian flu in Minnesota, America. Link

    6th March 2015 – Hundreds of cattle are dead due to drought in southern Ecuador. Link

    6th March 2015 – 10,000+ cattle dead due to flooding of the river Ebro in Spain. Link

    5th March 2015 – Thousands of dead fish wash up on beaches in Buenos Aires, Argentina.Fish dead in Argentina Link

    5th March 2015 – 12 turtles stranded, 3 dead, on a beach in Abruzzo, Italy. Link

    5th March 2015 – 9,000+ birds are dead due to another avian flu outbreak in Bauchi State, Nigeria. Link

    5th March 2015 – Thousands of dead fish wash up along Derwent river in Tasmania, Australia. Link

    5th March 2015 – Thousands of dead fish found in Cabo Frio, Brazil. Link

    5th March 2015 – Millions of birds killed due to avian flu during past 6 months in South Korea. Link

    5th March 2015 – 1,100 Birds killed due to avian flu outbreak in Mekong Delta, Vietnam. Link

    4th March 2015 – 4.17 MILLION birds have been killed since January due to avian flu in Taiwan, China. Link

    4th March 2015 – 300 Snow Geese have died this winter due to disease in Illinois, America. Link

    4th March 2015 – Thousands of dead fish found on coast of East Java, Indonesia. Link

    4th March 2015 – 23,500 Birds to be killed due to avian flu in Schwanewede, Germany. Link

    4th March 2015 – INFO: 30 dolphins/whales and 54 turtles wash up dead during 2014 in Abruzzo, Italy. Link

    3rd March 2015 – ‘Lots’ of dead turtles found on a beach in Piacabucu, Brazil. Link

    3rd March 2015 – Thousands of dead fish, plus dead ducks found in a lagoon in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Link

    3rd March 2015 – Large die off of fish ‘due to cold weather’ at 3 sites in Nova Scotia, Canada. Link

    3rd March 2015 – Hundreds of dead fish found floating in a river in Hainan, China. Link

    2nd March 2015 – 100,000 ducks killed due to avian flu in Fuzesgyarmat, Hungary. Link

    2nd March 2015 – Thousands of TONS of shellfish have died off during past few years in Whangarei Harbour, New Zealand. Link

    2nd March 2015 – 3 dead whales found washed ashore in Chennai, India. Link

    2nd March 2015 – Hundreds of dead fish found in a pond in Aguascalientes, Mexico. Link

    2nd March 2015 – Thousands of dead fish found washed up along Columbia River in Portland, America. Link

    1st March 2015 – Dozens of birds drop dead out of the sky in Tennessee, America. Link

    1st March 2015 – Masses of various marine creatures washing ashore dead on Pasir Ris beach in Dead creatures SingaporeSingapore. Link

    1st March 2015 – Mass die off of fish and reptiles due to burst fuel pipe in Tabasco, Mexico. Link

    28th February 2015 – 100 dead or dying turtles found in the Bellinger River in NSW, Australia. Link

    28th February 2015 – 97 dead sea birds found along beaches of the North East coast of France. Link

    28th February 2015 – Hundreds of dead fish found on the banks of a river in Uttar Pradesh, India. Link

    27th February 2015 – 10,000 birds dead, 23,000 killed due to avian flu in Monywa, Myanmar. Link

    26th February 2015 – Fish kill in 2 farm ponds in La Union, Philippines. Link

    25th February 2015 – 5,000 Birds killed due to avian flu in Jigawa State, Nigeria. Link

    25th February 2015 – Thousands of dead fish found, ‘no explanation’ in the port of Wolfersdorf, France. Link

    25th February 2015 – 500 head of cattle dead from landslides in Northeast Afghanistan. Link

    24th February 2015 – Masses of dead fish found floating in Guanabara Bay, Brazil. LinkDead fish in Brazil

    24th February 2015 – Dozens of dead sea lions found on beaches in Malibu, California, America. Link

    • rah says:

      Chris Barron says: “You’re all welcome to jump in your cars and drive to Washington to complain…killing more birds along the way than the turbines will.”

      Bull crap. Am approaching having driven two times the distance behind the wheel of a big truck that Micheal Collins had in the command module of Apollo 11. Driven a big truck in every one of the lower 48 and Ontario and Quebec. I have hit maybe a half dozen birds in that time that I know of and no Raptors (although twice I can remember dodging or braking for them). A couple times I can remember at night hearing the light thud of what was probably a bat bouncing off the raised sleeper. The largest was a goose that crashed into my driver side mirror and then window.

      So odds are I could drive the 1,160 mi round trip between Anderson, IN and DC quite a few times without killing anything. In fact I have more or less done that when for over three months I did a round trip from Anderson, IN to White Marsh, MD three times a week and don’t remember hitting a single bird or bat or any other animal in that time.

      Now exactly how many bats and birds are the fossil fuel plants killing? I didn’t see that stat on your chart.

      • Gail Combs says:

        My Dodge diesel pick-up (25 yrs old) has more than a million miles on it. I have kill two bird and four deer in those twenty five years. I just drove through a flock of birds an hour ago and did not hit one.

    • Stephen Fisher says:

      15th March 2015-specious post grinds discussion on wind farms to a halt, masses of participants lost searching for point.

  18. Chris Barron says:

  19. Chris Barron says:

    So if you drive a car, own a pet cat, use mobile phone towers, get your electricity over high tension networks, eat crops which have been sprayed with pesticides and live or work in a tall building (even a low level one for that matter)….you’ve already contributed to more bird deaths than a 10,000-fold increase in wind turbines ever could

    • shazaam says:

      I am a bit curious.

      When was the last time you or anyone you know seen a domestic cat drag home a raptor (eagle or hawk) that it killed?

      Counting the death of a cat’s usual and customary prey (small birds like sparrows and robins) as equal to the death raptors by bird-choppers / wind turbines is the hallmark of government funded science.

      Of course somewhere there could be a house-cat that has managed to kill a raptor before being killed itself. I consider that outcome quite unlikely.

      • gator69 says:

        I live near a major breeding ground for Bald Eagles, and a neighbor down the road lost one of his cats to a Baldy a few years back. Good riddance.

      • rah says:

        My neighbor has 4 outside cats. They can’t even handle red breasted woodpeckers or mocking birds. Those birds will run those cats off every time.

  20. Chris Barron says:

    One of our cats (the smallest of 4) brought a large wood pigeon , alive, up a fence, over a garage roof, then into a slot in a high level window…and the bird was alive and survived.
    These days I’ld be tempted to wonder how many birds are taken by weasels.

    Anyway…it looks like a figure which represents the real number of kills by turbines can be sensibly calculated at 1 to 2 birds per turbine per year…. see..

    • gator69 says:

      Gee, turbine salesmen saying turbines are safe! Who would have guessed? 😆

      • Chris Barron says:

        I’ve said the opposite of saying they are safe to wildlife (and the people who fall off them)…to those then they are life threatening. But that is no way near the same extent of danger as all the existing known killers of birds, raptors included.

        I maintain it is a side issue 😉
        Would you join me I a worldwide ban on building buildings. Raptors die because of buildings every year….or are you biased ?

  21. Chris Barron says:

    Cat and raptor stand off….

    Cats take hawks, well known fact

    • gator69 says:

      Cat did not take hawk. Are you blind? The hawk got away.

      • Chris Barron says:

        Are you blind, i did not say this cat took this hawk. I said it was a stand off.

        Cats take hawks, well known fact

        • gator69 says:

          Then show me a video that substantiates this, and not some BS.

        • gator69 says:

          For a well known fact, when Googled, I find the reverse. Hmmmm.

        • Chris Barron says:

          No, you don’t speak English do you ?
          The opposite of ‘cats can take a hawks’ is ‘cats cannot take a hawk’

          You show me evidence that a cat has never taken a hawk.

          I guess if I were to find a single piece of evidence to support the extant fact you would admit to being mistaken ?

        • Chris Barron says:

          Thats an eagle, not a hawk…your English is getting worse, and nobody would doubt that a hawk or an eagle use cats as food.

          Do you maintain there is no proof of a cat ever taking a hawk ?

        • gator69 says:

          It’s a raptor you tool. And you still have not shown a house cat taking any form of raptor.

        • Chris Barron says:

          If there isn’t a video of it then it has never happened. ? You’re the tool

        • gator69 says:

          As pet-owners ourselves, we share your concern for the safety of your pet. Raptors hunt a variety of prey, including rodents, birds, rabbits, snakes, and insects. Large raptors, such as Red-tailed Hawks and Great Horned Owls, can attack and kill small pets. We have received dozens of inquiries about dogs and cats weighing anywhere from 6 to 60 pounds. There is no specific cut-off weight at which your pet’s safety is guaranteed. If the size of your dog or cat is similar to or not much larger than naturally occurring raptor prey, there is a risk, not just from predatory raptors, but also from urban coyotes.

          We recommend that, for animals that weight less than 15 pounds, that you supervise all of their outdoor activities and that all cats be kept indoors at all times.

        • Chris Barron says:

          What you perhaps don’t realise is that in the UK at least, birds of prey are protected.
          Should someone post a video of their cat taking a sparrowhawk they are likely to invite questions from the RSPB (bird protection) about their cat’s behaviour……but filming it and not telling the authorities would be an invitation to prosecution.

          Who in their right mind would post footage of their cat taking a hawk ?

          My daughter used to wokr at a local bird of prey centre, at least two of their hawks are rescues from feline involved incidents.

        • Chris Barron says:

          We have a problematic sparrowhawk in our locale (our street backs onto woodlands) which takes nesting birds throughout spring. When it has a bird pinned down on our lawn I usually don’t have to wait long before one of our cats scares it off and the cat takes the prey for itself.

        • gator69 says:

          In other words, the hawks survived, unlike run ins with bird shredders.

          Britain is tiny compared to the rest of the globe, your example is worthless.

        • AndyG55 says:

          “in UK at least, birds of prey are protected”

          Yep, they used to be in the USA too.. but wind turdines get carte blanche to kill as many as they like.. intentionally.

          Its SICK, like anyone that tries to defend it.

        • AndyG55 says:

          “the cat takes the prey for itself”

          So you cat is a carrion eater, not a hunter. like owner.

        • AndyG55 says:

          “You show me evidence that a cat has never taken a hawk.”

          You are the one making the statement.. back it up or STFU !!

        • AndyG55 says:

          LOL, I remember once when I threw out a chicken carcass for the cat.
          10 minutes later there was this plaintive meowing.

          The cat was sitting some 3 m away while a couple of magpies helped themselves to whatever meat was left. Cat was sure a pussy !!!

          Never seem a cat take on a healthy magpie, let alone a decent bird of prey….

          neither, apparently, has Chris.

    • Aard Knox says:

      “My daughter used to wokr”
      Your proof-reading’s getting worse.”

  22. gator69 says:

    If there isn’t a video of it then it has never happened. ? You’re the tool

    One instance in nearly 30 years, behind a pay wall.

    How will raptors survive?! 😆

  23. gator69 says:

    Chris Barron says:
    March 15, 2015 at 5:53 pm
    We have a problematic sparrowhawk in our locale (our street backs onto woodlands) which takes nesting birds throughout spring. When it has a bird pinned down on our lawn I usually don’t have to wait long before one of our cats scares it off and the cat takes the prey for itself.

    More unverifiable claims, and no dead hawk.

  24. gator69 says:

    Chris Barron says:
    March 15, 2015 at 5:54 pm
    I thought you said it never happens ?
    What cat owner in their right mind would post a video of their pet killing a bird of prey ?

    As far as I know it didn’t happen, the story is behind a pay wall and the bird may have already been injured.

    Maybe one, in three decades vs 2,900 dead “goldies” in one pass in California in 25 years.

    Do math much? 😆

  25. Stephen Fisher says:

    …Chris Barren-I hope he is married to Hope-confining the misery to two

  26. smamarver says:

    ….. And, as I may add, ff-shore wind parks also influence the climate, by making the winter milder especially in the Northern area. There are some interesting aspects here – – the author of the article seems to have made an deep research in this field.

    • Chris Barron says:

      Now now, apart from the uneducated spelling mistakes lets consider the effect of fish rising and falling, and whales in particular , being that they’re so large and must contribute to mixing, and given that so many whales have been removed from circulation in the past 150 years then whale fishing must definitely have produced a cooler ocean….thank goodness the wind farms have come into their own in order to restore the previous situation.

  27. Chris Barron says:

    Like I should believe anyone here gives a flying fart about a few dead birds….all of you are the saviours of the close to extinct species are ya ? card carrying WWF members ?

    Okay , I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you really care about such tiny death rates……so how come I never heard you care about the larger causes of bird deaths . Whats that you say ? large numbers of deaths are fine, it’s the small ones which bother us ? Kindof like looking after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves ? heh



    • Disillusioned says:

      ” card carrying WWF members ?”

      You have got to be kidding! WWF and the UN IPCC are blood brother organizations.

      Caring about the environment doesn’t mean swallowing “green” propaganda. SMH

      • Chris Barron says:

        “Caring about the environment doesn’t mean swallowing “green” propaganda. SMH”

        So true. But can I count on your support of my campaign to remove windows and replace them with shutters ? Will you be the first to do it to show you’re good intent ?

        Cats kill between 20-100 birds a year each. Wind turbines no more than 2
        There are 4 cats living with us….if I cared about the few killed by wind turbines I would be forced to care more about all the birds which our cats kill…..come to think of it, plenty of others think so too

        Does cat taste of chicken ? Or pigeon, or sparrow ?

      • AndyG55 says:

        “Cadillac Fairview faces three charges under the federal Species at Risk Act, the Environmental Protection Act and the Ontario Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act. ”

        But wind turdine farms FACE NO CHARGES…

        They get off scot-free.

        That is the big issue.

      • AndyG55 says:

        “More than 800 migrating birds killed by a single building’

        That building need to be altered so it doesn’t reflect the sky.

        Wind turdines need to be altered so they down turn.

    • rah says:

      I have a 4 lb feeder and two large seed blocks I keep filled year round. Don’t go making stupid ASSumptions about people you know little or nothing about. Now moles? I am gonna kill a few this year and that will most likely make the Owl that nests in my 60′ blue spruce rather unhappy.

      • Disillusioned says:

        “Oh wait you weren’t really asking me but instead were just lining up a report about conspiracy and bribes or something similar I care very little about”

        So, who is the conspiracy theorist? ROTFLOL

        • Disillusioned says:

          Chris, I understand you “care very little about” it, but others may. Since you brought up the WWF…
          Instead of the world’s best and brightest scientists who wrote the IPCC climate bible, besides graduate students writing some chapters, some of the authors were from the WWF. So much for the IPCC being a neutral body.

          No conspiracy theory. Fact.

        • Chris Barron says:

          Exactly, it’s a terrible situation.

          one author was also nothing but an art gallery owner from New York too

          Listen, don’t think that just because I am not personally put off the idea of using wind turbines to generate electricity that I am in some way a fool who thinks the IPCC are great.

          As I’ve said before, I have very little concern when it comes to CO2 affecting the climate because my belief is that any (if there even is one) affect on the climate from man’s industrial activiities is so small as to be negligible…and I take the same approach with these unfortunate bird deaths, they are negligible. Sorry, but it needed saying…..there are far larger problems for birds where it comes to interacting with our built environment than a couple of deaths each year at each wind turbine.

          And this isn’t even the thin end of the wedge, one mild outbreak of typical bird illness kills more birds in a week or two than all the turbines put together in a year. We don’t want to try to mitigate bird deaths in this way….but how many fish die at the blades of boat propellors, some very rare fish too…we don’t let our hearts bleed for them . The odd manatee here and there gets rescued, but that isn’t a fish

          People cried hard for the dolphins getting caught up in tuna nets…I didn’t hear many people crying for the dead tuna. Did you ? I’m neither an animal rights protester nor a blood sports enthusiast, I think we need to keep a calm head, that’s all

      • Chris Barron says:

        You see Rah, you’re demonstrating how easy it is to help bird populations so that any killed by other unfortunate means can be replaced with our assistance.

        It’s a simple and obvious solution.

        More bird feeders and some artificial nesting boxes will go a long way to help bird populations. Proven fact

        • AndyG55 says:

          “More bird feeders”

          Yep, just tie your cats up where the raptors can get at them.

        • rah says:

          The cats prey at the feeders of course. But proper placement of the feeders in locations that provide no cover for the cats pretty much thwarts the cats ability to make kills.

          It’s coming up on the best time of year for the feeders as the migrants pass through. Soon I will have several types of grosbeaks and all kinds of other nonindigenous bird species like blue birds stopping by to get a feed and maybe a day of rest before they continue their journey to where ever they spend the warm months further north.

          Just after sunset last night a large flock of Canadian geese flying low and probably looking for a place to stop for the night passed over. They don’t necessarily stop at a pond, often they spend the night in the middle of some harvested corn field scavenging for grain.

          No Robins nor Swallows or Martins have shown up so far and so spring has not really sprung here yet. As far as I’m concerned old man winter has not been defeated for the time being until I have several Robins in my yard hunting worms. And we have plenty of worms after the melt and 48 hours of steady rain we had towards the end of last week. The Swallows and Martins start showing up just a little later. This summer as I mow my lawn the swallows will be swooping around my tractor feeding on the flying insects the mower deck kicks up. I enjoy watching their aerobatic displays.

      • Chris Barron says:

        From a popular bird lover’s blog, refuting claims about feeding birds being bad for them (but conceding on some points)…

        –Sterba is correct in saying that feeder birds, startled by humans or cats or hawks, do occasionally crash into patio doors and windows, and some die from the encounter. (Some birds also are hit by vehicles, as Sterba says, but we don’t see that feeders are the cause of this.) To birds, a window looks like a hole in a wall through which they should be able to fly, so it’s up to bird enthusiasts to minimize window strikes by hanging drapes or by moving the feeder so that some other escape route is more obvious to birds in transit.

        …the article goes on to accept that bird feeders attract cats, for obvious reasons. But lets be honest…..we have a bird feeder and cats, lets all plead a bit of ignorance here !

        • AndyG55 says:

          “lets all plead a bit of ignorance here !”

          You don’t need to plead… Its obvious….. more than a bit.

        • Chris Barron says:

          I’ll kick the ball and you head it into the net…’re not likely to write anything which adds perspective anyway.

          We all know that the number of birds killed is small and insignificant, now we’re just kicking the ball around because it’s a done deal.

        • AndyG55 says:

          Its neither small nor insignificant. The number are very large, and are having a devastating effect on bird numbers, PARTICULARLY at the top of the predator range, the eagles, osprey etc.. These birds are few in number to start with.

          So stop your moronic defence of wind turdines.. they are a totally unnecessary blight on the landscape and on rare avian wildlife.

          Let me guess, you are one of the scammers taking all the subsidies.

          So of course you have to downplay the numbers, because you JUST DON’T CARE !!!

    • AndyG55 says:

      “card carrying WWF members ? ”

      No, that’s why we care !!!

  28. sorcha says:

    I feel I am living through the bleakest time in the history of mankind. Man killing wildlife, fish life, farm life, the health of mankind jeopardised physically and mentally, rural communities torn apart, the scenery we all took for granted and the depreciation of land and homes and what for? We now see what has been happening but how do we harness the power to stop this madness.

  29. Gail Combs says:

    Chris the Wind Barron has a tough time understanding why we are against the MONEY PITS some call bat-chomping, bird-slicing eco-crucifixes. Wind Turbines are completely usless money transfer mechanisms that scar the countryside kill PROTECTED ENDANGERED raptors and USE more energy than they ever create.

    Chis The Wind Barron is trying to divert the conversation from RAPTOR KILLS by wind turbines, kills that are BY LAW ILLEGAL, To occasional kills of plentiful bird species by cars and buildings. This is a typical Propagandist Ploy. It is used to deflect people away from ugly truths. Wind Turbines kill PROTECTED ENDANGERED raptors and the US Government says that is just fine and dandy. In essence the US government is saying there are two sets of law. One for the Serfs and one for the Aristocracy. USing two sets of Laws DEFINES P.C. Governments.

    WIND POWER FRAUD: WHY WIND WON’T WORK by Charles S. Opalek, PE (As Steve has been pointing out engineers, especially licensed Professional Engineers don’t lie like the ClimAstrologists and their suck-ups do.)

    This the book exposes the utter uselessness of wind power, including how:

    * Wind turbines rarely produce their advertised full power. On average, wind turbines only produce about 20% of their nameplate rating.

    * Wind power is unreliable and undispatchable. When it is needed most, it will likely be unavailable to provide any power when it is needed most.

    * Wind power is not clean. It takes a lot of dirty energy to make the materials, manufacture and install a wind turbine facility.

    * Wind turbines are not environmentally friendly. They are noisy, unsightly, kill bats and birds, interfere with radars, and have been shown to be responsible for a slew of health problems.
    * Wind turbines consume electricity whether operating or not. Often this power is not even metered. Care to guess who is paying the bill for this power?
    * In theory, if 20% of US electric generation was replaced by wind power, the decrease in CO2 emissions would be an unnoticeable 0.00948%.
    * In reality, wind power doesn’t reduce CO2 emissions at all, because backup fossil power plants have to cycle wildly and inefficiently trying to keep up with erratic wind power output.
    * Wind power will not replace fossil fired power plants. Germany estimates that by 2020 up to 96% of its wind power capacity will need to be backed up by new coal fired power plants.
    * Wind power will not reduce US dependency on foreign oil. If wind power replaced 20% of US electric generation, the resulting decrease in oil imports would be a measly 0.292%.
    * Wind turbines have an embarrassingly low Energy Returned On Energy Invested value of 0.29. The manufacture, installation and operation of wind power facilities will consume more than 3 times the energy they will ever produce.

    Wind Power is Big Business. The big winners will be developers, land owners, brokerage houses, banks, manufacturers, governments, the “green” movement, environmentalists, researchers, academia, and the news media. The big losers will be the taxpayers and electric bill payers.

    Wind energy – Unreliable, expensive and utterly impractical

    • Chris Barron says:

      I always say you can measure the strength of a persons argument by how long it takes before they use the counter argument against themselves

      In Opalek’s case it isn’t very long at all. On one hand he claims to research climate fraud and counters claims that CO2 is not affecting the climate….while at the same time adding weight to the argument that CO2 does affect the climate by emphasising how important CO2 emissions are….

      Quote of Opalek by Gail
      “* In theory, if 20% of US electric generation was replaced by wind power, the decrease in CO2 emissions would be an unnoticeable 0.00948%.
      * In reality, wind power doesn’t reduce CO2 emissions at all, because backup fossil power plants have to cycle wildly and inefficiently trying to keep up with erratic wind power output.”

      So Gail…if you think he’s one of the good guys, what do you make of his emphasis regarding CO2 and wind turbines….looks to me like he’s keeping a foot in any camp which might be interested in buying his books. There’s no honour in that if you ask me.

      If he was so sure that CO2 wasn’t an issue why would he waste time giving CO2 ratings to wind turbines.

      We can guess why, I think

      • David A says:

        We do not all know that bird deaths from wind are a “tiny” number. The fact that you talk about all birds, verses the raptors, and you always use the smallest number projections from non independent sources, means little. The tuna / dolphin discussion was cogent.

        Wind requires large land use, and when you impact large area eco system the affects propagate. I suspect the numbers killed are somewhere in between the extremes, but the wind turbines are useless anyway for the most part.

        You talk about the direct subsides (and not very well btw), but ignore the structural subsides that force all generation to pay more. You ignore the current legal system that raises the cost for all. The power generated by wind and solar always gets paid for,, even if not needed. The sell is guaranteed, and the base load requirements faced by conventional are not required of solar or wind. The price is jacked up for all power, just to allow wind and solar to exist within the grid.

        Competing in a free market, they would not exist.

    • Chris Barron says:

      Where people like Opalek fail in their analysis, is that they look at one life cycle of a wind turbine. They assume that at the end of it’s life a turbine is removed, the site is cleared, the land sold off again, the road dismantled and the power distribution network is taken out….and then a new wind turbine is installed which supposedly accrues all those installation costs again.

      Taken over a 100 year period, with a view to replacing only the nacelle every 20 years, with a lower cost refurbished unit, the continuing costs of wind, spread over the 5 life cycles, are then far lower than is being calculated by Opalek and the other worrying anti-establishment heroes of yours. Some people can’t seem to be able to see further than 20 years ahead.

      The first one breaks even towards the end of it’s life , even without subsidies, but because the infrastructure is in place the subsequent costs are very low ‘per installation’ compared to the first one, breaking even in less than 30% of it’s lifetime.

      The return of energy, calculated by Opalek at 0.29 includes all the installation energy and initial build energy. once the long term program is established that figure rises considerably for the very obvious reasons which stand out when you analyse a site which operates for 100 years

    • Chris Barron says:

      In fact here’s a return to workshop maintenance routine for a turbine.

      After 15 or 20 years the turbine is relocated to workshop and given this treatment, it is then ready for reinstallation (for another 15-20 years). Clearly, the reinstallation costs are not even going to be of the same order of magnitiude as the preliminary installation.

      Installation of the first turbine on one location, 2MW for example, approx £3 million.
      The next 4, covering the following 60-80 years cost under £250,000 each, because the infrastructure and tower already exists. Number of dead birds in that time =200

      There is industry, skilled workers jobs in this long term plan, which isn’t present in many other power sources and which shouldn’t be forgotten about or dismissed too readily.

      Poor quality analysis of wind is all too common because the 20 year timeframe is deliberately cherry picked, for the same reasons that the AGW brigade cherry pick their timeframes to suit their agendas, to make wind look like an expensive option.

      Once a site is established and a refurbishment system is in place then the cost to the consumer is very low, the cost in terms of energy is low, and if you’re name is Opalek, the CO2 emissions are also very low, when you pick a more realistic timeframe of 100 years or thereabouts, because you don’t need to rebuild the whole location or reinstall the power distribution or maintenance road network each time you refurbish

      Further turbine refurbishment information

  30. Gail Combs says:

    Isn’t it intersting how the Disinformation Agents like Hopeless and Chris the Wind Barron will spam a thread with all sorts of garbage to confuse the issue.

    Chris —– WIND POWER SUCKS!!!! — go nuclear!

    And for your info I can see a nuclear plant out my window as I type this. I MUCH MUCH rather have a nuclear plant in my backyard than a <b.bat-chomping, bird-slicing eco-crucifix screaming in my ears.

    • rah says:

      If wind power generation was an economically viable alternative, privately funded wind farms would have been and would still be springing up without massive government subsidies. Most of them will go the way of the dinosaur eventually. Probably even before commercial fusion reactors are developed. Because ultimately I think nuclear fusion, be it “cold” or not, will be the answer to sustainable electric power generation.

      • Chris Barron says:

        Rah, I’ve already explained the story of a company called Ecotricity at leastn twice.

        A long haired hippy type new age traveler called Dale Vince, started with an ex army truck and a wind turbine. he reinvests over 80% of the profits back into expanding the number of wind turbines which he operates.

        He is now the richest single private wind farm owner. in his own words it can be doine without subsidies , it just takes longer.

        He’s worth a fortune and his ex wife is hunting him down for her share. if you are dumb enough to believe that those profits which she is gunning for are nothing more than subsidies which went into his bank account you’re a fool

        • rah says:

          There are exceptions to every rule. Take away the subsidies and your point about economic viability will be made. Until then……………..

        • David A says:

          Their are far more subsides then just the direct funding The system is set up as a forced subsidy of utility. Wind gets first crack, and a portion of conventional is required to back off. The grid is required to buy back your solar or wind, weather it needs it or not.

          The system itself is a forced utilization subsidy. Also, neither wind or solar are required to meet anywhere close to their name plate capacity, unlike conventional producers.

          If wind and solar were forced to compete under the same rules that formerly applied to conventional, they would be a foolish investment. The overall price increase in electrical generation, is in fact a subsidy to wind and solar.

        • Chris Barron says:

          Why wait till then Rah….use a calculator and figure it out, you’ll see for yourself. The big expense is putting up the first turbine, securing the location and connecting it up. After that every turbine is quite literally a money spinner.

        • Chris Barron says:

          Rah “There are exceptions to every rule.”

          Rah makes the rules,aye ?

        • Chris Barron says:

          David, if the subsidies, the tax breaks which subsidise the coal and oil industry were not present those businesses wouldn’t be doing so well.

          All energy is subsidised, why penalise the new starts ?

        • gator69 says:

          Fossil fuels are not subsidized. You have been shown this before, but then I noticed you tucked in ‘tax breaks’, as if they are the same thing.

          Roll over and give Hope a kiss.

        • David A says:

          Chris, first you ignore the points of my post, and then you casually call tax breaks a subsidy. Pray tell me the net contribution of the oil companies and the taxes they pay vs their tax breaks. Now do the same with wind and solar. Now compare both to the amount of power they generate.

          Now you find, after all the work, that solar and wind pay very little in taxes, are hugely subsidized relative to energy produced, and a net loss as they force up the price of ALL power generation due to the systemic legal system set up for them by bureaucrats.

        • gator69 says:

          Here is your tax break for fossil fuels…

        • Chris Barron says:

          Gator, the tax at the pump is not a tax on the oil company.

          That is a consumer tax, not a producer tax

        • Chris Barron says:

          David i didn’t ignore your points

          You were busy telling me that you were right.

          Carry on, i am not ignoring you.

        • rah says:


          ANY TAX on a commodity at any point from extraction to processing to distribution to sales, is a tax on the CONSUMER! PERIOD! The consumer ultimately pays for it all. Why do people make such silly distinctions?

        • David A says:

          Chris says, “My issue with you is that you tell me what you think is right for me, and you’re wrong.”
          Hypocrite much? I do not see Gail asking you to pay for her energy source unlike you asking Gail to heavily subsidize your energy preference. You have ignored my main post about subsides.

          Chris you are ignoring. Also Andy is quit right, all corp. tax is a consumer tax.

      • Chris Barron says:

        Excerpt from Vince’s interview…

        He became a biker, and worked as a mechanic.

        “In my early twenties, I stopped living in towns, and lived on the road.”

        He had an ex-army lorry and put a wind turbine on top.

        In 1991, he stopped on top of a hill in Stroud. He saw the blades of his turbine spinning and had a revelation as to what wind power could really do.

        “I went off to Cornwall to look at the first wind farm.”

        He decided to try and construct his own industrial wind turbine. It went up in Stroud, in 1996. Today, Ecotricity has 60 turbines around the country, and 125,000 customers.

        “We’re right in the mix. Everyone else in the industry is talking about energy independence. We’re already there.”

        His mantra is “bills to mills” – harnessing revenues to build more turbines, until they’re all over the country.

        “The more energy we can produce, the more competitive we can be.”

        He can freeze his prices, since, as he points out: “Fossil fuels will only go up as they run out, but wind stays the same.”

      • Chris Barron says:

        Rah “Also, neither wind or solar are required to meet anywhere close to their name plate capacity, unlike conventional producers.”

        Please show the information pertaining to the enforcement of a rule which states conventional providers must produce the full rated capacity all of the time. It does not exist

    • Chris Barron says:

      I didn’t expect you would make an effort to understand the nuances, I wasn’t let down Gail

    • Chris Barron says:

      Gail “I MUCH MUCH rather have a nuclear plant in my backyard than a <b.bat-chomping, bird-slicing eco-crucifix screaming in my ears."

      That's fine for you…I don't dispute that you believe it or that you have a right to think that.

      My issue with you is that you tell me what you think is right for me, and you're wrong

      • Gail Combs says:

        Chis, If it was ONLY YOU then fine and dandy but it is not. I just had Duke power visit and DEMAND I change to a SMART METER. I will be charged an ADDITIONAL $400/year to ‘opt out’ (At least North Carolina allows the serfs that option) I am sure that after they have fleeced me for a few years I will be told ‘opt out’ is no longer an option.

        Richard North tells us WHAT a Smart meter will do:
        Energy: “big brother” technology

        In particular, the paper is identifying the role of “smart” appliances, telling us that fridges and freezers in millions of British homes will be automatically switched off without the owners’ consent under a “Big Brother” regime to reduce the strain on power stations.

        The National Grid, it says, is demanding that all new appliances be fitted with sensors that could shut them down when the UK’s generators struggle to meet demand for electricity.

        Electric ovens, air-conditioning units and washing machines will also be affected by the proposals, which are already backed by one of the European Union’s most influential energy bodies. They are pushing for the move as green energy sources such as wind farms are less predictable than traditional power stations, increasing the risk of blackouts….

        This echos what ERCOT said a few years ago. The page of course has since been rewritten to HIDE the goals of the totalitarian elite.

        Energy InSight FAQs

        ….Rolling outages are systematic, temporary interruptions of electrical service.
        They are the last step in a progressive series of emergency procedures that ERCOT follows when it detects that there is a shortage of power generation within the Texas electric grid. ERCOT will direct electric transmission and distribution utilities, such as CenterPoint Energy, to begin controlled, rolling outages to bring the supply and demand for electricity back into balance.They generally last 15-45 minutes before being rotated to a different neighborhood to spread the effect of the outage among consumers, which would be the case whether outages are coordinated at the circuit level or individual meter level. Without this safety valve, power generating units could overload and begin shutting down and risk causing a domino effect of a statewide, lengthy outage. With smart meters, CenterPoint Energy is proposing to add a process prior to shutting down whole circuits to conduct a mass turn off of individual meters with 200 amps or less (i.e. residential and small commercial consumers) for 15 or 30 minutes, rotating consumers impacted during that outage as well as possible future outages.

        There are several benefits to consumers of this proposed process. By isolating non-critical service accounts (“critical” accounts include hospitals, police stations, water treatment facilities etc.) and spreading “load shed” to a wider distribution, critical accounts that happen to share the same circuit with non-critical accounts will be less affected in the event of an emergency. Curtailment of other important public safety devices and services such as traffic signals, police and fire stations, and water pumps and sewer lifts may also be avoided.

        As I wrote a couple years ago, as problems with an unstable grid due to Solar/wind becomes worst expect Smart Meters to become mandatory and I was correct. In NC and several other states WE HAVE NO CHOICE.

        Don’t want smart meter? Power shut off
        The rollout of smart electric meters across the country has run into a few snags: one woman doesn’t want one, and ended up in the dark as a result.

        You might not think that would be an issue. But it is, because Duke Energy is now beginning to disconnect any homeowner who refuses a new electric meter.

        Other electric companies are not pulling the plug…yet…..

        • Chris Barron says:

          Gail, your ever shortening memory has let you down once again.

          Have you forgotten the discussion we had about smart meters already, and the benefits of having smart appliances ?

          There is a lot of hype about some sort of sinister goings on. As far as I know (and I do know something about smart meters) they are mostly meters, they cannot disconnect people, they have no switch, in general. There are metering devices which do have inbuilt switches, I have only seen these in industrial premises, where I installed machine performance monitoring equipment. Never seen one in a domestic environment and due to the cost I can’t see how it would be possible to roll them out instead of a benign meter….but perhaps you could suggest how it could be done and fill in that detail ?

          One more thing, NEVER read the Daily Mail, except when your favourite comic isn’t available

        • Gail Combs says:

          Chris Barron says:
          “….Have you forgotten the discussion we had about smart meters already, and the benefits of having smart appliances ?…”


          That is what Smart Meters are all about SOMEONE ELSE will now be CONTROL MY LIFE!

          If you want to be a serf and live in a Transit Village have a ‘medical’ technician sift though your purchases and ‘Intervene’ in your life then go live in North Korea and leave those of us who want freedom alone.

          You really think we are dumber than mushrooms given all the B.S. you keep trying to stuff down our throats.

      • Gail Combs says:

        Make no mistake the USA plans to follow the UK down the same third world rabbit hole.

        The Department of Energy Report 2009

        A smart grid is needed at the distribution level to manage voltage levels, reactive power, potential reverse power flows, and power conditioning, all critical to running grid-connected DG systems, particularly with high penetrations of solar and wind power and PHEVs…. Designing and retrofitting household appliances, such as washers, dryers, and water heaters with technology to communicate and respond to market signals and user preferences via home automation technology will be a significant challenge. Substantial investment will be required….

        These controls and tools could reduce the occurrence of outages and power disturbances attributed to grid overload. They could also reduce planned rolling brownouts and blackouts like those implemented during the energy crisis in California in 2000.

        The question of course is WHY India and China are building Coal and Nuclear and the USA and the EU is not.

        In 1992, As Chairman Maurice Strong (Canadian Socialist) told the UN conference at Kyoto…

        “It is clear that current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class, involving high meat intake, consumption of large amounts of frozen and convenience foods, use of fossil fuels, appliances, home and work place air conditioning, and suburban housing are not sustainable.”

        The same propaganda was repeated by WTO Director-General Pascal Lamy (French Socialist)…

        “climate change negotiations are not just about the global environment but global economics as well — the way that technology, costs and growth are to be distributed and shared… Can we balance the need for a sustainable planet with the need to provide billions with decent living standards? Can we do that without questioning radically the Western way of life? ”

        So destruction of the US electric grid has FUCK ALL to do with CO2 or the attributes of solar and wind and everything to do with the Destruction of Western Civilization.

        Sorry Chris go pedal your Disinfo to people who don’t know where this is leading – SERFDOM! To paraphrase Aristotle “When the mines dig themselves and the looms weave by themselves then slavery will end” Without cheap RELIABLE energy it is back to serfdom.

  31. Gail Combs says:

    Chris the Wind Barron thinks I know nothing about wind power and I am just Anti-wind power.

    He is incorrect. My farm is on the top of a ridge and it is windy enough we never see mosquitoes. We have over 100ft drop in elevation. It has clay subsoil with lots of farm ponds in the surrounding neighborhood. In otherwords an ideal site for a wind turbine and pumped storage. (I even have the plans from a farm mag for a generator that works on a short drop in elevation.)

    Hubby (a physicist) and I spent a lot of time looking into ‘renewables’ with the exception of Geothermal, methane from on farm biowaste and niche applications for solar they are a SCAM.

    Given the electric is so expensive we have not run the house heat or A/C for over two years, you better believe we have looked into alternates!

    • Chris Barron says:

      You’re being over sensitive Gail. nobody knows wht you think, nobody said know nothing.

      You don’t see a difference between powering your home from a single small turbine and a larger turbine with it’s accompanying beneficial economies of scale.

      Last week i went to Covanhill Powder Coaters to collect some motorcycle parts i was having coated. As you approach their farm there are now two wind turbines where once they had only one. powder coating requires a large electric oven, and as they have a farm with machinery and a large 6 bedroom farmhouse they need a lot of power there. i asked them how well the wind turbines were working they said ‘So well we had to install a second one’

      They’re still connected to the grid, and the usual overheads for powder coating businesses are not as applicable to this small firm.

      Horses for courses.

      Drop them a line and see what they have to say, as a real world small scale user of wind power

      • You don’t see a difference

        Nobody asked your ridiculous opinion about what someone else sees. You’ve done an excellent job of making the case that you’re obviously a twat who thinks that wind power for luxury services is some kind of panacea. Go live your life without anything but goods & services provided by wind power & leave the rest of humanity alone until you’ve accomplish it, twat.

        • Chris Barron says:

          Look who’s annoyed now !
          Calm down kiddo. You’re just another coat tail surfer.

        • Chris Barron says:

          “who thinks that wind power for luxury services is some kind of panacea”

          powder coating is a luxury service ?
          Power a powder coating oven or 5 houses….it’s either/or, electricity doesn’t give a damn

    • gator69 says:

      Hey Gail! I too live on top of a Ridge with room enough for my own wind farm, and plenty of wind. A neighbor and I looked into building commercial turbines with the idea of selling electricity to others in the valley. But after crunching the numbers, it just does not add up. I was once convinced that solar and wind could meet our needs, and when I looked seriously at both sides (I was an honest broker, unlike others), it became obvious the sellers of wind were completely dishonest in their assessments.

      The bird chopping is just a side issue.

      • Chris Barron says:

        “The bird chopping is just a side issue.”
        My god, now you’re siding with me !

        • David A says:

          Why do you purposefully misconstrue what someone meant?

        • gator69 says:

          No, I’m not. I see your problem now. You cannot process info right in front of you.

        • gator69 says:

          Confirmation bias is a sad disease.

        • Chris Barron says:

          “!”, means, ya know, maybe a bit of humour is required…. ! !!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          Back to the very serious business of whatever this is supposed to be….apparenlty it’s that ‘millions of birds’ will die, the report in the first post quoted 1.2 million by 2030, not millions… really is insignificant.

          2 birds per turbine per year…yes I get that they’re raptors…..dumb raptors but raptors all the same, but as long as people keep filling their bird feeders for the smaller birds then the raptor numbers will probably not suffer

          Over here in Scotland we have a problem with there sometimes being too many raptors for commercial game bird farmers…..the grouse do well and have chicks, the raptors come and kill them…the gamekeepers poison the raptors. Some raptors are close enough to extinction, some are doing much better thanks to the farming.What do I feel about that ? Nobody has started a program to seek and destroy every raptor, but if it’s against the law then they should probably be charged, but the law needs be considerate of the exceptions too.

      • Chris Barron says:

        The title of this thread is “Wind Farms Killing Millions Of Birds And Bats”

        Gator says “The bird chopping is just a side issue.”

        So what is the real issue ? 😉


        • gator69 says:

          Extremely expensive and unreliable power that must have fossil fuel backups, backups that cost more than they would without serving bird choppers’ needs.

          Be a real man Chris, and demand a level playing field, and quit dismissing opposing arguments out of hand.

          Wind turbines have been oversold, oversubsidized and are underperforming.

          Go ahead, sell all your possessions that were not produced by wind, and buy only windmilled products. See how long you last.

          More senseless dribble that does not address these issues from Chris in 3,2,1,…

        • Chris Barron says:

          Gator, have you ever read a single calculation on any of these pages which proves what you’re saying.

          It shouldn’t be hard, have a go yourself, all you need is a calculator and basic understanding of the units of electrical power.

          So many engineers, so few calculations, very odd. All we’re getting is ‘expert’ opinion, but read the words in the top right hand corner of this page’s banner, it claims “”Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts” – Richard Feynman

          Go on have a go, right out some maths and show how bad wind turbines really are.

          Don’t go quoting a so called expert, that’s just following dogma, and that isn’t science.

          I’ve produced the maths at least once and funnily enough nobody could actually fault the numbers.

          A 2MW turbine….costs £3million to install including all first install costs, roadbuilding, land purchase, grid connection

          – true or false ?

          Using the ‘plate rating’ argument, lets assume it produces 20% of it’s rating, so that’s 400 kilowatts average 0.4MW

          – true or false ?

          Over 60 years, thats 525600 hours multiplied by 0.4MW which is 210240 MWh (210GWh)

          – true or false ?

          The nacelle needs to be refurbished at years 15,30 and 45, at a cost of (very generously) £400,000 each time

          -true or false ?

          The total cost of the turbine (no maintenance yet) is £3million plus £0.4 million three times. Therefore the total costs is £4.2 million

          -true or false ?

          The wholesale electricity price is £55/MWh

          – true or false ?

          The revenue from the wind turbine equates to £55 x 210240 MWh = £11,563,200

          This assumes the price of electricity does not change in 60 years

          – true or false ?

          The profit is £11,563,200 minus £4,200,00 = £7363200

          Out of the profit take your maintenance (£30k per year ?)
          Out of the profit take taxes.
          Out of the profit allow some contingency
          Out of the profit pay dividend to shareholders

          Where’s anyone else’s figures then ?

        • gator69 says:

          I’ve already done the math Chris, with my neighbor who also wanted to build turbines, and I looked at the real world figures and not just what turbine salesmen say. I also saw that wind farms in Spain are killing the economy and causing folks to literally lose the farm. You obviously do not read other people’s posts.

          We have seen you spin more than your beloved bird shredders, go sell your crap somewhere else

        • Chris Barron says:

          So, no actual maths to speak of….

        • gator69 says:

          No salesmanship math.

        • gator69 says:

          How is that garage sale going?

        • A C Osborn says:

          Mr Barron, in your calculations you forgot a few minor Details.
          1. You forgot to include the loss of £40-50 per MWh for the difference in Strike rate and Wholesale price, so the loss to the End User is about £45 x 210240 MWh = £9,460,800
          2. You forgot to include the Back up Generation required for when the Turbines are producing virtually nothing as they are at the moment, So for the investment for every single turbine costing £3,000,000 each we have to also invest in a backup facility, which is about £250,000 per Turbine.
          3. Although you quote “connection to the grid” that does not include all the necessary land lines.
          4. When the Turbines are Idling they are “Drawing” energy form the Grid.
          So take another £10Million off of your so called “Profit” of £7363200 it does not look quite so good for the Customer does it?
          NOt at loss of about £3M.

  32. gator69 says:

    Chris Barron says:
    March 16, 2015 at 3:43 pm
    Gator, the tax at the pump is not a tax on the oil company.

    That is a consumer tax, not a producer tax.

    All taxes are paid by consumers you moron.

    • Gail Combs says:

      That is something Leftists can never get through their thick skulls.

      I am glad someone else did the number crunching and came up with the same conclusion. That makes three of us. (An engineer, I respect in Alabama on another board also agrees.)


      Don’t want Coal or Natural Gas? The only viable options are Hydro, Geothermal and Nuclear (preferably thorium.)

      After the Fukushima/earthquake situation I feel a lot more comfortable with nuclear.

      That earthquake was enough to moved Japan coast 8 feet, shortened the length of day and shifted the Earth’s axis!!!

    • Chris Barron says:

      “All taxes are paid by consumers you moron.”

      That’s irrelevant, the point of taxation was what we were talking about. Now who’s misunderstanding to suit their own needs ?

      • gator69 says:

        You tried unsuccessfully to state that there is a difference where taxes are applied, and the fact that you are a moron is indeed very relevant.

        But do spin some more, it cannot possibly make you any dizzier. 😆

        • Chris Barron says:

          It wasn’t me who brought up the issue at taxation at source… if wind farms attract taxation in the same way as other sources….well….that’s just called fairness isn’t it ?

        • gator69 says:

          Now you want to lie by omission and ignore the subsidies that bird shredders receive, along with the tax breaks.

          Go sell your crap somewhere else. Better yet, do as I said earlier and get rid of everything you own that was not built with windmills, and then try and live off of windmill production.

          I see alot of loony blather with zero conviction.

        • Chris Barron says:

          I can’t see how avoiding doing the math helps anyone Gator…..but I am not disingenuous like you

        • gator69 says:

          I can’t see how listening to salesmen helps anyone Chris…..but I am not disingenuous like you

        • A C Osborn says:

          Chris Barron, a challenge for you. If Wind Power is so good please lobby the UK Government to immediatley remove all Subsidies, to both Land Owners and Wind Power Companies.
          They are the biggest Con the World has ever seen, as is anything else that needs subsidizing.
          I am sure that Rhead Group pay you very well for your propoganda.
          Remind us again how much Energy Wind is currently providing to the UK Grid.
          Oh yes, less than 1GW.
          Also remind us how much in total us UK Tax Payers have had to pay for this Glorious amount of energy.

          In other words why don’t you piss off to somewhere that is prepared to listen to your lies.

        • Chris Barron says:

          A C Osborne….
          Good question…

          Try getting a bank loan for a business which doesn’t pay much back for the first ten years, and when you understand that a bank can make more money by investing in stocks or minerals instead and still get the same returns ask yourself if that definitely proves that the business is not viable….or does it only show that long term returns are difficult to fund at the start.

          Remember , that only the first turbine at a site gets a subsidy (and subsidies are going down here)…. 6 years of subsidy to get a big return after 25 and steady profit forever after is not a common business model but it isn’t possible to fault the numbers. But, do PLEASE be my guest to put your numbers out in public

        • A C Osborn says:

          I already did up thread, your so called profit is at the Customer’s expense, you and the industry are just Parasites.

      • shazaam says:

        Gator’s point was that “The point of taxation” does not matter at all. Though I would quibble that politicians love to tax corporations / producers to look like heroes to the (tax parasite) voters while hiding the fact that they are actually taxing those voters.

        If you tax the corporations / producers, they have 3 options for finding cash to pay those additional “fees / taxes”: (listed in order of likelihood)

        1) Pass the taxes / fees on to their customers (consumers pay directly here with a markup at the retail level)

        2) Reduce costs by laying-off staff. (some consumers pay a steep price to cover the costs of the new tax)

        3) Absorb the additional cost and pay less in dividends / profits. (this makes the industry less attractive for future expansion / investment and thus, long-term, is very bad for the consumers)

        Higher taxes suppress investment / expansion. Just ask the folks in Greece how all those new taxes are working out.

        The quiet little secret about firms outsourcing production overseas is that the reduction in labor costs are generally cancelled by the additional shipping and long supply chain costs. However, the tax savings for outsourcing are gigantic.

        If you could move to a neighboring town and keep every penny you earned, would you?

        • gator69 says:

          Hey Shazaam! I was trained as a scientist, but worked in finance for nearly 25 years, so I am aware of corporate options regarding expenditures (taxes are simply a cost of doing business). I just prefer to keep my posts brief, and besides, the truth is always simple to convey, it requires zero hand waving or salesmanship.

  33. alakhtal says:

    Reblogged this on Liberalism is Trust Fucked with Prudence. Conservatism is Distrust Tainted with Fear and commented:
    A Mustignore Misleading Headline of vague abstruse substance.

  34. alakhtal says:

    A Mustignore Misleading Headline of vague abstruse substance.

    • gator69 says:

      Is this your Facebook page?

      Iraqi minister: concerns over IS looting third ancient site They ain’t any fucking archeology in Iraq or Mosul. Assholes! It’s just cheap gypsum replicas to fool fools. Iraqi Artifacts were looted by US Troops at gunpoint and sold to private collections Israeli psycho kleptomaniac during Bush Chaney, Rumsfeld, Powell and the black whore Rice Fuckocrasy in Iraq.

  35. Gail Combs says:

    AndyG55 says:
    “……………….Let me guess, you are one of the scammers taking all the subsidies.

    So of course you have to downplay the numbers, because you JUST DON’T CARE !!!”


    There is a Wind Turbine Scammer out there named Chris Barron but Chris The Wind Barron claims not to be that guy. (Son, nephew….?)
    Rhead Group:

    or perhaps:
    Chris Barron, a spokesman for the Main Street Partnership aka RINOs…. (So now we know who is attacking the Tea Party)

    Chris The Wind Barron is also over at William M. Briggs, Statistician to the Stars!

    • AndyG55 says:

      Obviously some funding link.

      Lives of taxpayer subsidies, no wonder he is scared of the truth about the devastation that wind turdines cause.

      Once real people start to hear about this slaughter, the politicians will be forced to start to remove those massive subsidies and feed in tariffs.

      Barren is desperate… and it shows.

    • AndyG55 says:

      Once the idiocy of CO2 demonisation comes to an end, and people realise that using coal is actually good because it returns buried carbon back into the carbon cycle, all this non-alternative non-energy crap with die a natural death.

      But you can bet that those who have gained from the scam will have taken their money and run, leaving other people to tidy up their mess.

    • Chris Barron says:

      The last time you figured me to be him I sent you the link to my actual Linked in profile…and in fact it is still there in the other thread.

      I have nothing to hide and I don’t work in the energy sector.

      I’m just a regular guy, with a fully functioning calculator it has to be said

      “It was because he wanted there to be conspirators. It was much better to imagine men in some smoky room somewhere, made mad and cynical by privilege and power, plotting over the brandy. You had to cling to this sort of image, because if you didn’t then you might have to face the fact that bad things happened because ordinary people, the kind who brushed the dog and told their children bedtime stories, were capable of then going out and doing horrible things to other ordinary people. It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone’s fault. If it was Us, then what did that make Me? After all, I’m one of Us. I must be. I’ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. We’re always one of Us. It’s Them that do the bad things.”
      ― Terry Pratchett, Jingo

      • AndyG55 says:

        Wow, you found a Chris Barron LinkedIn page to link to.
        Not as if there are not plenty to choose from.

        • Chris Barron says:

          I wish I was bothered Andy….. no really I do

        • AndyG55 says:

          No bother for you to lie and mis-lead..

          Its who you are.

        • Chris Barron says:

          Roll out that calculator big man, I bet you can’t prove my figures to be way out.

          Carry on with your personal attacks, it helps you divert your attention from the fact that it is you who has had to believe lies, and to not even consider that your calculator is about the only honest thing you have at your disposal.

          I dare ya, go on, power it on and punch in some numbers……

  36. Gail Combs says:

    Chris The Wind Barron is claiming the numbers are exaggerated, so lets do a back of an envelope estimate to see if the numbers make sense.

    At the end of 2012 there were more than 225,000 wind turbines operating that equals 4 to 5 raptor per turbine per YEAR to equal 1 million birds. I very very much doubt a wind turbine is only killing a raptor once every couple of months.

    Wind FARMS added as of this year:
    03/2015: 17 wind farms added (Brazil, China, France…)
    03/2015: 36 wind farms added (Germany, Finland, Brazil…)
    02/2015: 7 wind farms added (Canada, France, Hungary…)
    02/2015: 2 turbines added (GE Energy 1.62-87, Goldwind GW121/2500)
    02/2015: 26 wind farms added (Germany, USA…)
    02/2015: 2 turbines added (Suzlon S111/2100, Lagerwey LW136/3600)
    02/2015: 17 wind farms added (USA, Brazil, Germany…)
    02/2015: 20 wind farms added (Brazil, Poland, Canada…)
    02/2015: 8 wind farms added (Israel, Canada, USA…)
    02/2015: 1 country added (United Arab Emirates)

    The estimate of 13-39 million birds and bats every year certainly sounds like a reasonable number since one kill a day per turbine based on the 2012 numbers equals 82,125,000 birds or bats therefore 13-39 million equals between 1 to 4 kills a week.

    Griffon vultures killed by wind turbine, Spain – courtesy of GURELUR*

    Certainly looks like more than a couple a week. (Anyone dealing with dead animals knows you get the carcass ASAP if you do not want a mess + predators.

    • Chris Barron says:

      Oh Gail……….

      Your calculation is based on doubt and uncertainty.

      “The estimate of 13-39 million birds and bats every year certainly sounds like a reasonable number”

      Based on what research, which author ?

      • Chris Barron says:

        According to the American Bird Conservancy there were about 570k bird deaths for wind turbines (and 300 million for collisions with glass)

        According to the ABC, and official figures for the number of turbines, that means that what you dispute is actually true

        Gail says ” I very very much doubt a wind turbine is only killing a raptor once every couple of months”

        According to a conservancy agency, that’s all it is Gail. In fact Gail, fewer raptors than any other bird type is killed, so the number of raptor deaths, averaged over the installed turbine base is surprisingly small

  37. AndyG55 says:

    “you get the carcass ASAP ”

    You can bet the turbine operators have people employed to find and hide the evidence.

    • Gail Combs says:

      I am sure they do. Vultures will find a carcass within 24 to 48 hours depending on the temperature.

      • gator69 says:

        My coyotes grab them within 12 hours at most. You don’t pass road kill out here twice.

        • Gail Combs says:

          One of the farmers in my area took care of the coyote problem, at least for a while. They got into his pasture and took out his entire herd. The pack was over 50 animals.

        • gator69 says:

          To me coyotes are not a problem, in fact, I like having them around. Coyotes eat moles.

        • rah says:

          Well we have them around here but they haven’t been coming into my yard to eat them. Perhaps because I shot one once. My little Cocker Spanial wouldn’t have a chance against a pack. So when it’s dark she does her business on a leash. During the day we can hook her up and let her go on her lead.

          Now for the moles? Last year it was limited warfare. I just put out the poison worms. Got a few but not enough. No more fooling around. This year I actually have declared war and am going all out with WMD. Got my gopher and mole gas bombs. They WILL be defeated this year.

        • gator69 says:

          Moles? I have trapped them, poisoned them, drowned them, and shot then with my 12 ga (favorite method by far). But to get rid of moles, you need coyotes.

        • Gail Combs says:

          They also eat dogs, cats, goats, sheep, chickens, calves, and toddlers, and singers.

          My cats, the foxes, hawks and owls take care of the mice and moles. Hagar tried to take a rabbit once and ended up with a very nasty bite. (The reason I laugh at cats taking raptors) Have you ever tried to soak a cat’s leg in epson salts for twenty minutes twice a day? A suit of armor is highly recommended.

        • Gail Combs says:

          Oh, and the coyotes also eat through the rib cage of a friend’s horse gutting it but leaving it alive.

          No I do not like coyotes.

        • gator69 says:

          My raptors cannot dig holes.

          All you need to keep coyotes away is a big enough dog. When I had a neighbor with a dog (Yellow Lab/Retriever mix), the coyotes stayed off the property, because she made regular patrols on both of our properties, but I also had a mole problem come back. Now that the neighbor and dog are gone, the coyotes come right up to the house at night and I have no more moles.

          Proper fences and dogs are enough to guard livestock. None of my neighbors have lost any livestock to coyotes since a calf was taken about five years ago.

        • gator69 says:

          Hate to admit it Gail, but I don’t like horses. My uncle raised Appaloosa’s and I never understood the attraction, give me a dirt bike or four wheeler any day.

        • Gail Combs says:

          Gator, it depends on the density of the coyote population. Our dog was torn apart by the coyotes.

          At night, my sheep and goats are kept up next to the house with a guard donkey behind 5 ft X 16 ft goat feedlot panels (4 ga steel.) The donkey will wake me up if predators come prowling.

        • gator69 says:

          We have a very dense and healthy coyote population here, because farmers have learned how to live with them. At Night I hear competing packs declaring their territories, up to 6 packs at a time.

        • rah says:

          Abundant but not that dense here in Central Indiana. Still though I see them sometimes late at night right along the road of the industrial park where the terminal I drive out of is. They can be brazen and aggressive one second and cower and slink away the next.

          One dark morning a couple years ago my wife driving her Jeep Cherokee headed to work came around the “S” bend just a 1/4 mi down our road and took out three of them. They had killed and dragged a sheep out of the fenced field of the little rescue farm there and she came around that blind corner as they apparently were dragging the carcass across in the short straight between the two 90 deg curves.

          She spun off the road missing the trees. Scared the hell out of her when the rest of the pack went after her vehicle. Once she got her act together and put in 4 wd and got rolling again they took off.

        • gator69 says:

          Where my mother lives in Florida, a pack of coyotes killed her neighbors Chow, but that was because he was tethered and had no chance. Across the road from her property is a sheep farm, and one Great Pyrenees keeps all the coyotes out of the field, they have not lost a sheep in many years.

  38. JP says:

    And here I thought molesting a bat in any way was a felony. Silly me.

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